2018 Donald McKayle Interview

Oh really?

Then Doris Humphrey was there in Martha Hill.

Were you a student?

I was in a company Sophie Maslow Dance Company.

[crosstalk 00:00:23]

Yeah. Sophie Maslow, Jane Dudley, and William Bales had a company called the New Dance Group Company. I was a member.

This was an opportunity. How did that happen that you had this opportunity to [crosstalk 00:00:43]?

Well on a certain day of the week all the members of the company could present things. This was one day of the week. Here they are.

We came to see you Donald. [inaudible 00:00:58]

Here I am Donald McKayle, speaking words of wisdom.

All the company members-

Were given a chance to present their work and this is one that I had worked on, so I presented it.

Was it unusual to do a dance to a poem?

Yes, it was very unusual and I remember when Martha Hill came talking to me about y direction. She wanted me to do more things that wasn't being done. Doris Humphrey came with a lot of records for me. They were records like The Impressionist.

Was it also unusual to do work that was about homelessness?

Of course. They had to do work about people who are in stature. I broke a lot of rules. I keep on breaking them.

Yes. What gave you the inspiration to break rules like that? You were, what, 18? [crosstalk 00:02:36]

Yes. I had a book of poetry of black artists and I liked this one, so I chose it.

Did you also know Countee Cullen?

I met him, yes.

You met him.

He was teaching at a high school, PS 136, I think. Public school 136. He was not that far from me. Next door to me was his aunt, Aunt Ida. He would come over to stay with her and have dinner with her, and she introduced me to him. That's how the connection came.

I read poetry, but it doesn't necessarily give me ... you all know you'll be in comp class or something like that and they'll be like, "Okay, am I going to get ..." ... in Dallas I went [crosstalk 00:03:54].

No, I studied in New York first.

Well, yeah I mean the first time. This I would have learned it a lot later. Was that your company at that point?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sudden Games.

Yes. I remember very well because it was my first company. I remember them.

Was that piece inspired by the [crosstalk 00:04:26]?

What I remember as a child all of that is my personal memories.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

(singing) I sang the songs with one of the girls that was in the company, Shaniqua Baker. Later when I revived it I sang it with my daughter. She was an adult by then.

That piece has been reset quite a few times.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I did it here once.

Oh yeah?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yeah. I don't remember who I saw it on, what company I saw perform it? Saturday's Child hasn't been reset.

Not for quite a long time. I set it on Janet Alba who you see on the video. She now is the director of the Martha Graham Company.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then I think I learned it from you in, I'm not going to get this date right, maybe 2006.

I don't remember.

I don't either. I stalked him. He didn't know that.

You were always there asking me.

Yes.

I guess I would call it stalking.

Yeah. I call it soft stalking, like trying to do it without being annoying. I hope I wasn't annoying. I went to the American Dance Festival.

I did it there.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think I started learning it there.

I remember we were talking about what they had seen and Eliot Feld said, "And he [inaudible 00:06:29] and so on." He was a nice kid.

Eliot Feld. Is there anyone else doing Saturday's Child?

No. Just you.

In case.

Wipe my nose.

In case.

Thank you.

All right, well maybe I should go do it.

You want to start?

Yeah.

She didn't come down here.

[crosstalk 00:07:13]

I may ... yeah, y'all [crosstalk 00:07:15].

Hey Mia. ... because there's steam coming out of them. Then it's in front of a business and the people are saying, "Get away. Go on." They're chasing away, so that's the setting that she starts from.

So, I'm going to hit that, so some of that might have to move a little bit. Just those [crosstalk 00:07:45]

[inaudible 00:07:45] Back.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

[inaudible 00:07:54]

This is only whistle and rags.

Some are teethed on a silver spoon, with the stars strung for a rattle. I cut my teeth as the black raccoon for implements of battle. Some are swaddled in silk and down, and heralded by a star. They swathed my limbs in a sackcloth gown on a night that was black as tar. For some, godfather and God-dame the opulent fairies be. Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me. For I was born on a Saturday. " Bad time for planting a seed," was all my father had to say and, "One mouth more to feed." Death cut the string which gave me life and handed me to Sorrow. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.

Very good. You really studied that tape very well.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

I'm very impressed.

Oh, thank you, sir.

Isn't she terrific?

Terrific.

Yeah.

Thank you, sir.

I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I'm impressed.

Oh, thank you!

It's so different from what you showed me and I kept saying, "How did she get there from what I taught her?"

Do you have a microphone on in the show?

No, but we'll have mics on the front-

On the floor.

... of the stage to pick it up. It's going to be an intimate space. It's the Billy Holiday theater in Brooklyn. They've just redone it.

Really.

It used to be the restoration ... they call it restoration art, 651 Arts is presenting it. It's tiny, so you will have that feeling of intimacy. It's only 199 seats. Beautiful redone. It's tiny, but I think it actually works for this piece, that feeling of being right there. I'm pleased about that. Yeah, I tried to find, again, some of the accents and the clarity I was seeing, and also the stuff that you told me to be reminded of what we talked about when we were initially together the first time. [crosstalk 00:17:01]

I kept remember that. I said, "What is she doing?" When I started I just taught you. I kept saying, "Where are you going? What's happening?"

I'm glad it's better.

It's just terrific.

Thank you. One of my questions was there was this feeling of heartbeat and I wanted to know, I think initially when I had picked it up, or one of the differences is, "Pain, godfathered me." Then there's a ... There is a heartbeat, yeah?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Should I keep hearing it?

You can spread your legs wide, wide, wide.

Wide, okay.

There you go. Yes.

You want to hear sound there. Okay, that was one of my questions. I think also I had a memory of my arm actually being out, but hers stayed connected. I don't know if you have a thought about this arm from the very beginning. Do you have a feeling about whether you want it out or in?

Well, you're asking people that are passing by for money and they pay no attention to you. You have to bring it forward every time you see someone.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you have a feeling is this person who also has another type of affliction like polio or is it just being on the street for a long time?

On the street. A street person. She has all the afflictions of what it is to live on the street.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

I was just remembering this because I went to the emergency room and there was three people there. The police came and took them away because they weren't sick. They were just there to keep out of the cold. They had stories about being sick. They were very bright.

Mm-hmm (affirmative) to get out the cold.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

There was a man and woman, I don't know whether they were up here, I think they were. He was ... His tummy, sometimes, would see his backside. Very strange experience being there. When I remembered this dance and how I got in to do it ... I was a very strange young boy.

Strange to other people? Sometimes I know I consider myself strange, but I'm around a bunch of strange people. That's my community is all the strange people. Were you strange growing up or was it you were just an artist?

I was an artist. Things appealed to me that didn't appeal to other people. I remember Doris Humphrey and Martha Hill both coming to me and saying I should do other kinds of dances. Doris Humphrey gave me a group of records, which they were impressionist music. They were nice, really very nice. That was what I was doing at the time.

Let' see, who else was ... there's Doris Humphrey, there's Martha Grant. Who else was making work?

Martha Hill.

Martha Hill.

Yeah, she was the director of Juilliard Dance program.

There was Anna Sokolow.

Yes.

And Josée Lamothe [inaudible 00:22:28].

Teaching at Julliard. Did you go to school at Julliard?

I took some classes. I came and just took classes.

[crosstalk 00:22:43]

They liked me. They liked me so they're like, "Come on in."

Smart. Smart.

I was a good mover. I could dance.

He was, well in 63 when I was there, Martha Hill came in and said, "Class, I'm introducing you to your teacher this week is Donald McKayle." One girl went. She said, "Yes?" She said, "Who's Donald McKayle?" She said, "You'll find out." He walks in the room. "Oh my God. How am I going to get my legs to look like that" Then off we went shaking by the end of the class. Yeah, we had a good week, several weeks, Donald. We were changed people.

I bet.

At 17 years old.

I bet.

Changed.

Yeah. Then kept teaching there?

Not very often. I wasn't very much older than you were at that time.

U were just a bit. Not too much. You were a young one.

I was-

It was amazing. "You will find out," is what she said.

Well, most of them found me all out all the way.

Yeah, I'm sure y'all know. Yeah.

I could dance then so it's different than being in a chair. I could do all those things.

That you were making all those people.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

This is the 50s and the 60s. We're in the midst of the Civil Rights movement.

Right.

It's kicking. It also seems to be a big deal to have, and again in the arts I feel like we find these ways of we're more interested in people being people. That was a big deal that it was an integrated company or that was an integrated space for people to be-

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I remember the dancers that were in my first company very well. Some of them are dead now. I kept on living. Like Louanna Gardner, she was just lovely. She was also a lingerie model.

That's a good side hustle. Yeah.

She was lovely. And Eliot Feld who now has his own company, he was there.

He was one of your company members?

Mm-hmm (affirmative). George Lika, he's not a dancer anymore. You wouldn't know him. They're all old like me. I'll be 88 in July

In July.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

July what?

6th.

July 6th.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

My mom's birthday is July 4th.

Oh, right on Independence Day.

Yup. She always thought the fireworks were for her. She was like, "It's my day. I get fireworks on my birthday." You were just in, I got to see you briefly, at the International Association of Blacks and Dance.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Is it DCDC [crosstalk 00:26:48]?

Yes.

... label?

[crosstalk 00:26:50]

Yeah, they did it. They continuing dance company. They didn't [inaudible 00:26:55]. I was so happy.

Oh, good. Good.

When you see one of your favorite and important dances in your career being done again by fabulous dancers ... they were great.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's one of my favorites. Y'all have seen that one right?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Okay, yeah. That one is really-

(singing) It always comes in the middle of the break.

I did that. Are there any thoughts about delivery of text or any [crosstalk 00:27:49].

You have a wonderfully strong voice.

Thank you.

Yeah.

My question is when you start, what position will the audience see you in? Rear, front or your body sideways?

I thought one of the ideas is that you wanted to see my feet, the soles of my feet. I'm trying to start this way so my feet are facing, but if you want me to be, I can be anywhere.

That's be great.

This works?

Yeah.

Okay. Then when I scoot I can scoot on the diagonal. I also brought my costume.

You're upstage. You're upstage, right?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

It's a stage?

Yeah.

The only thing we saw was from this angle, anyway, was your backside. Maybe a little angled so that.

A little, okay.

Because it's in the corner, so we see your body tool.

I also brought the costume so you could take a look at it. It's got so many layers that it almost looks like a bunch of material and then my feet.

Yeah, a bundle. Mm-hmm (affirmative), sure.

That's the thing that emerges from there. That's a ...

Here Donny does the arm go straight up or straight out? That should be straight out from the chin.

Yes.

Not up.

I did this.

Don't go up.

No, she's asking for food or money.

Straight out, straight out. Don't go up.

People just pass her by.

[crosstalk 00:29:10]

Okay. One more mouth to feed. I'll probably [inaudible 00:29:19] here. Then I can come down so it won't cover the face, yeah.

Then you open your legs like a [inaudible 00:29:28] with your hands on the floor. Keep it on [fos 00:29:31].

Straight front?

Yeah. Is there two of them you do or one?

On this?

That one.

Yeah.

Straight up.

That's right.

Don't be at an angle.

[inaudible 00:29:58] Cool. Thank you. Any other things that you [crosstalk 00:30:03].

He knows what I think all the time.

Yeah, or any other questions, or I mean anybody has so we can take a look at things?

At the end when you're saying about, "Only kind of middle wife," where are you?

Probably around here. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.

Fine.

Then I'm going to head off this way. Does that seem right?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

[crosstalk 00:30:59]

There's another one you do when you fall on that position too [crosstalk 00:31:06].

Yeah, that's at the beginning.

Go fall when your leg is crossed over and you fall.

That's implements of battle.

When your leg is crossed.

Is it this one?

Yes, and then you fall [crosstalk 00:31:27].

Oh, it's this one. It's probably this one. Is it this one.

Keep the leg up high and cross it.

That one.

Yeah.

Yeah, cross it over and go ahead. Really fall to the right.

Oh, I think it might not be that one. What else could it be? That one I have to go ...

Straight down, or is it a fall?

This one goes straight down because I have to grab that. I have to do that.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Then I have that. Then I have this. Then I have that and this.

The next one. All the way. Yeah.

That's the one at the end. Is that the one you're thinking about?

Yeah, that's big step.

Beg or borrow. [crosstalk 00:32:29]

The last thing that I recall is the Medusa fingers. Do you want them on top of the head Donald or to the side of the head? Somehow I recall it being over the head like a crown. Is that right.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Like that yeah.

Mm-hmm (affirmative), okay.

Like that, yeah.

Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

There's [inaudible 00:33:02].

Like [inaudible 00:33:05].

Like stars. For some, godfather and God-dame. Oh, I think it's this one. Maybe. The opulent fairies be. That? It's that one.

Yeah, and that leg straight all the way. Way, way. No, no you're fine. Just keep it stretched and as far away as you can so it's big. Yeah.

I think it actually keeps moving I [crosstalk 00:33:47].

Keep your leg far from you. Deep. There you go.

Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me.

When [inaudible 00:34:22] is the head down or up?

I think it's probably down.

It's down.

Am I putting it up?

Don't bring your face up because [inaudible 00:34:31] boom, boom. Open and then drop. Right.

Okay.

Are there one, two, three, four of them or just two on the wall?

There should be ... Did I cut some out?

Yeah, it seemed like you only did two or three.

Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain ... mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is your foot with the toes ... point your foot as hard as you can and then flex the toes. That one over there too in the beginning, the same way. Full stretch in the arch.

Oh, this one.

Yeah, really show that. Flex your toes. Is it different between an unpointed foot and a pointed foot?

Yeah.

Or a flexed toe.

I can get that big toe going.

It's hard.

That probably [crosstalk 00:35:58].

That's amazing. How do you do that?

I can't do the whole toe. I can do one toe. See, I got baby toes. Should I try to do one toe?

No, all of them.

Yeah, spread them. Spread them.

There. Practice my toe [inaudible 00:36:27].

Hold it from under. Stretch the whole leg. Stretch the knee. Yeah, there you go. Stretch the knee. Yeah. There you go.

I know I'm working hard [inaudible 00:36:45]. What time is it?

It's 3:05.

You have another hour.

Teach it to everybody.

Is there anything else [crosstalk 00:37:04].

[crosstalk 00:37:03]

42

Weren't they all so clean.

I know, I got to dirty them up. Well, you know laundry, so I'll dirty them up. Where's my scarf? What happens is in between each solo there's some video footage, which gives me a little break in between the pieces. I have the footage we made in 2000 and let's just say 06. I have some old footage and then I'll include some new footage talking about the piece a little bit. Then you'll some of that before you see the piece. Maybe little snippets of rehearsal, you know, like dancing with the stars. You see them in rehearsal and then you see them live on stage. I'll be getting into these clothes.

I think this piece will be third. There's seven solos in the evening. I'm doing four in the first half. I think it will be Bebe Miller, Kyle Abraham, Saturday's Child and then Rain Forest. That's the first half. Then the second half is Jawole from Urban Bush Women. Jawole Zollar, David Rusev and then it's a piece that I made called No Less Black. That has a poem that goes with it. There's three in the second. Is that right? Did I just count-

You didn't put a finger up for your own piece.

Okay. Yeah, no that's right though. There's seven. I was like, "That's eight." No, it's seven. Yeah, usually I do it, but this time I'm actually teaching it. This idea of legacy it's like I'm getting this work from you. You're passing this work onto people. I'm actually going to set the last solo that I actually originally did in 2000 on a dancer who used to work with me 15 years ago. She was recently named one of the top 25 in Dance Magazine. She's having her own career and she danced with David Dorfman and did some work with Urban Bush Women and Liz Lerman. Now she has her own career so I'm going to set that on her. I'm going to read the poem, which I've never gotten to read. She'll do the work and that's the last piece in the show. In between each of these is, like I said, some footage. Different timing, so you don't get bored of, "Oh, here's the video moment." Sometimes I just do a piece without and then you'll see the video afterwards. Backstage changing is pretty fun. It's like, "Get this on her head, quick! Put that on."

Do you have anything on your head by the way, for this?

Yeah.

Just the scarf?

Just the scarf, but I tie it like ... she did something like ... You usually let it out so there's something going on kind of like that. Then I [inaudible 00:41:16]. Y'all know it's change [inaudible 00:41:20].

[inaudible 00:41:22]

This is also, like I said, if you want to change in costume. Someone said, and I actually thought this was kind of cool, is that you didn't know whether or not I was male or female. You know, because you've seen me already, but it wasn't like, "Oh, it's a homeless woman or a homeless man." It was just this being or person, which I thought was interesting. I can definitely dirty this up.

Your hair is spectacular.

Thanks.

Even without the bandana.

Oh, thanks. I'm trying to figure out, I was just laughing with Micheal. This is the filmmaker Michael Taylor and Finn over here his assistant. I was laughing because you know how you don't dye your hair for a minute, so it's two tones. It's black and gray and then whatever this color was a year ago. I'm taking off my underwear, sorry. Not my underwear, my pants. We all do this. It's okay. We know how it looks.

[inaudible 00:43:03]

By the way you [inaudible 00:43:10]. Don't look back at her when you take off your clothes. It looks like [crosstalk 00:43:10].

Did you say my name? Okay, nevermind.

Okay, all right.

By yourself, you know?

A few notes.

[inaudible 00:43:15]

You engage with her while you're taking off your clothing. What's he going to do?

Oh my.

Oh my. Did I do this right? I think that's right. I think that's right. Is that right? That didn't seem right.

It looks too much.

Yeah. Did I put it around my waist?

Did you wear pants in this?

Well, she has on leggings and skirt-ish thing on over it.

So we see the leggings.

That's a question. I got to look to see what I ... Thoughts? I don't think that's right. That's weird. Right? All of a sudden I'm a pregnant homeless person. What was this? Was it underneath? I'm going to look at my video really quick.

That looks [crosstalk 00:44:39].

Mr. McKayle how many times did you perform this solo?

I don't remember. It was long ago. 48.

Wow.

[inaudible 00:44:53]

It was long ago.

Yeah.

Maybe that was my of having a skirt without having a skirt.

I didn't have anything like that. No computers or any of this.

What did you wear Donald? You know, as what did you [crosstalk 00:45:11]?

[crosstalk 00:45:11]

What was your outfit?

Rags.

Just loose rags for a guy?

[inaudible 00:45:21] I've seen this.

Is this the only Saturday's Child that's on Vimeo?

I think so, yeah. Well, I did a version for the American Dance Guild. I don't think anything was made public.

[crosstalk 00:46:03] no. I don't think this is public either.

No, no. I think I had a clip. Then when I got the contract to it I made it private. I think I had a clip on my webpage. It's funny I was also just even coming up the street noticing the homeless on the street with the carts and the bags, the sleeping bag over the ... It's interesting when you do pieces like this. I don't know if this happened with you or if this happens with y'all. When you start doing pieces and they're of a topic you start seeing those beings and bodies a little different, those people.

Don't fix the collar too nicely.

I know.

Put one of them inside. Just put one of the collars inside so it's disheveled.

Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't button it even. I've got it evenly buttoned so already screwing things up. Yeah, that helps to keep it more ...

When you're moving it will ... yeah.

That pile.

[crosstalk 00:48:45]

Don't you love costumes? Two minutes ago I was like rehearsal dancer with my ADF shirt. Now it's like ... A little more do you think?

A little more, yeah. [inaudible 00:49:05]

Get out of here. Get out I said.

Some are teethed on a silver spoon, with the stars strung for a rattle. I cut my teeth as the black raccoon for implements of battle. Some are swaddled in silk and down, and heralded by a star. They swathed my limbs in a sackcloth gown on a night that was black as tar. For some, godfather and God-dame the opulent fairies be. Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me. For I was born on a Saturday. "Bad time for planting a seed," was all my father had to say and, "One mouth more to feed." Death cut the string which gave me life and handed me to Sorrow. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.

That's it.

Death cut the string. Do we want the hand straight across the throat like you slice the throat, or a across the chest?

The throat.

Like that.

I feel like I should have gone ... If I did the chest, yeah.

Keep the elbow straight away so it's very clear. I like your hair.

Actually, [inaudible 00:56:49]. Death cut the string. Okay. Okay. Anything else you can think?

Hello dear.

Hello.

Hello, [crosstalk 00:57:12] nice meeting you.

Hi. You as well. Nice to meet you as well.

Her hair is beautiful now. Do you like her hair?

I am glad you are all here. [crosstalk 00:57:20]

Yes.

I like it better without the bandana.

Without the bandana.

Oh, anyway, that's me. Your face is so clear and it doesn't look like you're trying to keep your hair up.

Okay. Do you have any [crosstalk 00:57:33]?

I like it with the bandana.

You do?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

With the bandana.

Nevermind.

Anything else? How does the rest of the costume feel to you?

Fine.

Fine.

Nothing like what I wore.

nothing like?

What I wore.

What did you say you wore? I think I heard you ask the question, but I didn't hear. Do you remember what you wore? No.

I remember some things, but other things are just smokey in my head.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

The last thing that I recall is the hands, when you're looking at them both times, is it nothing in your hands? You have nothing? Is that basically it?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Don't let them get buried in your costume.

Okay.

Somehow you've got to show, "I've got nothing.

Okay, okay. Yeah.

Then it goes out.

Yeah, my hand ... okay. Okay. Yeah.

Beautiful.

You done good.

Thanks. Thank you.

Do you like that [crosstalk 00:58:46]?

Thank you.

Would you rather have somebody that's [inaudible 00:58:48] leggings and something wrapped around them or you like torn pants only?

I was saying earlier, that something someone said to me, was that it was interesting that you couldn't tell if I was male or female, which seemed interesting to me.

Yes, because this dance can be done by a male or female.

Right.

It was first done by me.

Right. Then done by Janet. There you go.

Well, Janet many years later.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

I did it when I was 18.

That's good [crosstalk 00:59:22] do it the way you feel it should be what you are wearing.

Yeah, this feels, if it works for Mr. McKayle then-

Yeah.

Your voice does say it's your [inaudible 00:59:40].

Oh yeah. Well, it's a little deep. Sometimes in the morning when I get called by the telemarketers they're like, "Mr. Mason?" I'm like, "Yes. Sure. No, I don't want any."

That's good.

Any other thoughts and I'll let you be on your way today?

I think you're terrific.

Thank you, sir.

Beautiful.

Thank you sir. Thank you all.

I'm sorry I missed it.

Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing with us your work.

Thank you. I was saying to them earlier, I think everybody was still coming in, I was saying that a big part of this work, it's actually not about me. I want to be able to share this with ... this experience, to be able to work with all those choreographers one on one has been so amazing. I'm like, "I shouldn't be the only one with that experience. That's where the idea of turning it into a digital archive, because nobody watches PBS specials anymore. Nobody even has DVDs in their computers anymore. I want to put it online in a way, and we're still figuring out exactly how all that will happen, so that students and people who are interested in this kind of work can see the interviews, can see the work, can have access to it and keep it so it's not just a history [crosstalk 01:01:09].

This is so relevant. [crosstalk 01:01:15]

Have you done interview or does interview still to be done?

It's happening now.

That's the other thing that's [crosstalk 01:01:15] is one of the pieces, the piece with David Rusev, was about who has the right to marry.

Oh, I don't want to be in [crosstalk 01:01:21].

That was a conversation that we started 15 years ago and that has completely shifted in the last 15 years. He made that piece after Bush got elected the second time. What has happened between now and then? Again, this idea, because I think we think history, and we think things aren't relevant, but we're still dealing with a homeless problem.

[crosstalk 01:01:44] ahead of his time.

I was saying that this piece is 70 years old. 70. It's amazing to do something that is still so relevant.

I was precocious.

Yes.

[crosstalk 01:02:04] except that the bill sticks were replaced by guns. They're still relevant.

Yeah. We're still talking about police brutality.

[crosstalk 01:02:21]

Oh yeah.

Coming into communities, killing brown folks and harassing ... I think that was such a shock to people because we were like, "I thought we made it past that. I thought we weren't there. Now we have a president who can say things about women and it's not a ... we were hoping we were past some of these things that are still so very, very relevant. It's artists who help us have these conversations. When I first started learning this there was this conversation also about black dance. That wasn't a term, that wasn't a label, that the choreographers gave themselves. That was something that the white critics, who hadn't seen anything like that, that wasn't being put on stage. There was something about the works of these African American artists that they were speaking too, but they said black dance, which then lumped a whole group of folks together.

I felt like we were losing the diversity of voices within an entire population. Just because you were black during that time didn't mean that you were all making the same kind of work. Allio Piermario was making this kind of work. Mr. McKayle was making this. Dianne McIntyre was making a whole different kind of work. I felt like when I was coming up I knew my body wasn't the type necessarily ... I wasn't necessarily going to be an Alvin Ailey even though I loved the work. I was trained in ballet. I wasn't necessarily going to be a part of Dance Theater of Harlem.

When I was growing up in high school those were the two options that were given to me. I was like, "I like Paul Taylor in Hubbard Street. There's all of these other artists that are making work that I also think ..." That's where the no boundaries came from. The diversity of voices. Also, it's not about a race thing. What do we get to do on stage? We had pioneers making work about things that mattered. What now can we see on stage that we couldn't ... it has opened doors for all of us. Nobody has a claim on that kind of work or that kind of work. We are all in conversation.

[inaudible 01:04:53] whatever period of time or whatever president [inaudible 01:04:59].

Mm-hmm ( affirmative).

[crosstalk 01:05:00]

I lived through a lot of them.

What did you say?

I lived through a lot of them.

Yes. I said you're lucky to live the world the first American black president. [crosstalk 01:05:17]

Did you think that would happen?

No. Not at all.

What advice would you give young people? I'm sure you give to them all the time, but I just want to hear it. What you would tell them about-

I want them to do what's inside their soul to let it come out. Each one should be individual because they are. We have to have a need to do dances. I want to do this. This is something I want to show. I don't know how I came about that when I started to do dances before I learned to dance. I really didn't think of that.

How many of y'all are choreographing too? I didn't know that I liked choreographing. I wanted to dance. I was like, "I want to dance." Then, in the process of continuing to follow my heart through dance, then I started making work. Kind of because I had to. It started as a solo. The No Less Black solo actually started as a poem that I was writing. Not for people to hear, but I wrote it and then I made a dance to it. Then I made an evening length work to it. That was the first big thing I made. Then I just kept making things. I still think I'm a dancer. Now I'm a professor. I wasn't like, "I'm going to be a professor at the university." I just kept following that curiosity. The next thing you know I'm a professor at a university. Hilarious. It's not hilarious. It's awesome, but it wasn't in the plan. All the things that I learned when I was studying, when I was taking my ballet classes and my modern classes and then African classes and then dancing in the clubs all of that stuff ends up being in the work. Again, you're talking about your real life. This was my communities. This was things that I'm curious about. Sometimes there's not a [tan-dews 01:07:43] but I needed my [tan-dews 01:07:47]. I was in Ralph Lemon's work. I don't know if you all are familiar with him. He just won a national metal of honor for his artistry. You get that from the president, so he got it from Barack Obama. Really, experimental and he tried to make an un-dance, like take away all of the form, and it's like I still needed my dance training to do what I did. People will be like, "You don't need to dance to know how to do that." "Well, you do it." All the stuff that I thought ... the education comes from everywhere. Walking down the street, noticing the homeless people on the side, paying attention. Enjoy. Enjoy.

We find today, a lot of the choreography of today [inaudible 01:08:51] major choreographer. It's not the human experience. It's becoming robotic. It's like our computers instead of the human contact. We never had these things before. We are always in contact with each other in the studio, on the stage, wherever.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 01:09:08]

We spoke to each other on the phone all the time. I think Donald's work, it's so human. Every aspect of his works are the human being. Dancers are human beings. They're not machinery. The experience or the communication that comes across is the human experience, not the machinery. You can have all the lighting in the world and bebop music. That doesn't mean anything. It doesn't touch the soul like his ballets do. When you're making new works what do they mean to us anymore? Like you said it was not [inaudible 01:09:49]. But you need those [inaudible 01:09:51] to make what you did happen. It's a whole different kind of experience looking at dance today and what's coming out.

I actually think something that's common about the dances that are in the project, again it wasn't intentional, I was just working with the people who I was really interested in. Everybody's human. Everyone is about the human condition. Probably also because I know my limitation. Somebody else can get their leg higher then me and do more pirouettes.

That makes it even more interesting.

Yeah. I think all of the pieces are actually about the human experience. They're about people not pyrotechnics. That's not my expertise.

[inaudible 01:10:33] 17 pirouettes.

Ssshhh. Yeah, no that won't be me unless you want me to hop a lot. I like a pirouette, but yeah. All right, well I will let you continue on with your day. Thank you all for coming.

Thank you.

Thank you for facilitating all of this.

Bravo. Bravo.

Thank you.

You're great.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Thank you Mr. McKayle.

Oh, I think you're wonderful.

Thank you.

What's the date of your showing?

April 6th and 7th in Brooklyn. I got about a month to get all the things-

Billy Holiday Theater.

Billy Holiday Theater in Brooklyn. 651 Arts is producing it. They're an organization based in Brooklyn in combination with Restoration Arts. If anybody happens to be in New York.

[inaudible 01:11:23]

Yeah.

[crosstalk 01:11:26]

Feel free to stalk me on Facebook. It's okay.

Soft stalk.

Soft stalk.

Soft stalking.

I can give you my email.

Yeah, I was going to ask you yeah.

Gmasonprojects.

M-A-S-O-N.

Mm-hmm (affirmative), Gmasonprojects.

Projects.

@gmail.

It'll come from AzminC. That's my last name, Azmin. You're like, "What is that?"

Wonderful.