2005 Jumping the Broom Rehearsal
00:08
that a fern?
00:19
(unintelligible)
00:20
(laughter)
00:24
[pointing to a rosebush] Oh, look at that.
00:34
Oh, look at that. [points to a rose] (unintelligible)
00:35
(unintelligible) (laughter)
00:41
Beautiful flowers, man.
01:08
(dog barking) My name is Gesel.
01:09
[waves right arm in a single arc] Hey!
01:09
Howdy, hi.
01:15
Cheles, you better get up here.
01:17
Have a seat, I got a couple chairs here. Um, (unintelligible)
01:30
So, what's uh--of the
01:32
Oh, okay. I just wanted to make sure he's not out in the front with, uh--
01:35
Gettin' bit.
01:36
[laughing]
01:36
With, uh--exactly!
01:39
[laughing] Remember that last time, [laughing] Robbie was like--.
01:44
Hee-- [imitates a dog snarling and pawing the air]
01:44
[laughing]
01:47
Well, she-- she startled him, but he ran out of the room.
01:49
He ran out.
01:50
I'm glad, uhm, he went that way.
01:51
Uh, huh. He ran, yeah. [leans forward to adjust glasses]
01:54
(laughter)
01:54
Otherwise, yeah, 'cause she'd be kind of a like a, a tidbit.
01:56
She'd be a snack, uh-huh. He'd be like-- [smacks his hands together imitating jaws snapping shut]
02:00
What's it-- what's the dog's name?
02:00
Finished.
02:01
His name's Mojo.
02:02
Mojo.
02:02
Yeah, he's a big boy. Yeah. We're [gestures to David] big dog fans.
02:08
Uh-huh. [nods, smiling]
02:08
Yeah.
02:08
(unintelligible)
02:09
Yeah, let's do this.
02:09
Yeah, so I won't be grabbin' it.
02:11
Is this, uh, any--
02:11
It's all on here. I don't--
02:13
On this one.
02:14
Yeah.
02:14
Okay.
02:17
Now. What did I just do?
02:21
Hm.
02:28
Seems to work.
02:30
(laughs)
02:31
Okay, now we won't have any wrinkly stuff (unintelligible)
02:32
Right, right, right.
02:34
Uh, as long as you don't hit this [taps the pop filter in front of the microphone], ya know what I mean? Ah, you're a little bit [adjusts the pop filter] that actually should work pretty good.
02:41
Is this too much light? I mean, like, too much heat? Or are you fine with it?
02:44
That's fine.
02:46
She's--she likes heat.
02:49
Aye yeet(??)
02:57
Alright, um, if, if I can, can you just start reading? I'm just gonna get some level stuff.
03:03
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
03:06
Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a magnificent sun, and white steps [holds up left hand] that [flattens hand and waves it in emphasis] glistened like magical porcelain. [wiggles fingers in a soft fist shape] Maybe I remember these things in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. I loved Katherine with all my heart. And I had never known a thrill like running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart [opens hand, facing out] pounding [hand returns to soft fist] through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were [swallows] halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away.
04:07
Okay, question for you
04:08
[turns toward 3rd Speaker] Mm-hmm.
04:08
Does anything get really loud or really soft from that?
04:12
[shakes head]
04:12
--or is, it's generally that.
04:13
It's somewhere in there, yeah.
04:15
Okay. [turns to David]
04:15
[nods, looking in Gesel's direction] Uh-huh.
04:16
[turns back to stereo] Um, then I guess we can start.
04:20
Um, Gesel, that first sent-uh, start that one off really kind of informally. Just-
04:24
Funny how it's-
04:25
Funny how it's the little things. Yeah.
04:27
[nodding] Okay.
04:28
Kinda matter of fact.
04:30
Do you have something I could stand on?
04:32
Um.
04:33
Is the mic too high for you?
04:34
Is the mic too high? I can lower the mic.
04:36
Oh, okay. If I could have it lowered a little bit that would be great.
04:40
I just saw the [points to something at eye-level] thing--
04:45
Yes.
04:51
Okay.
04:51
Oh, yeah. I better be quiet.
04:52
(laughter)
04:54
Gah-lee! [sound of paper rattling offscreen]
04:55
(laughter)
04:56
Yeah, we might have to have you-well, yeah, just sit real still.
04:59
Yeah.
04:59
[laughter]
05:02
It's just like in kindergarten. Alright.
05:09
Okay. Um. We're rolling. So, uh, start when you're ready.
05:20
Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a [raises right hand toward the lower right corner of the clipboard] magnificent [forms a soft fist] sun. And, and white steps [fans out fingers] that glistened like magical porcelain. [wiggles fingers in emphasis, then spreads her hand.] Maybe I remember these things [flips hand upward, then gently shakes her hand repeatedly towards her chest] in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. [waving hand up and down] I loved Katherine with all my heart and I had never [lifts voice, raises hand slightly] known [drops her hand] a thrill like [spreads her hand and pounds the air for emphasis] running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart pounding through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away. I do not know how to describe a look [nods head in emphasis] of utter devastation. The stoop of the shoulders, the tremble of the fingers, the reflection in the eyes of a heart the does not know if the next beat is worth taking. But that is what I saw in those couples. And right then and there, we knew. The weddings had been stopped. And that ours was, once again, forbidden. I don't know how long we stood there, unable to move, before Katherine managed to put her head on my shoulder. Then I remember the feel of her tears as they [inhales] rolled down my breast leaving tracks over my heart before they splattered onto those magical steps that no longer wished our feet to be there. Eventually, we made it home. We got drunk on a bottle of wine, listened to Nat King Cole. As I fell asleep in Katherine's arms, with her palm stroking my face, I wasn't thinking about the [pauses] politics of it. Or the biology of it. Or the right and wrong of it. No, I was too crushed for any of that to matter. That night, all I could think was, but I just wanted to love her. I fell asleep and dreamed about slaves jumping the broom to marry. But I suppose I was really dreaming about just how far this hatred could go.
08:32
Okay. That's it.
08:36
That was kind of a-
08:37
-off the syllables a bit.
08:38
Mm-hmm.
08:39
And just go for a more natural flow. The tone of it is natural, but now we want to get the flow of it. And I think that's part of it, that if they--
08:49
(unintelligible)
08:50
"We knew the wedding had been stopped, and that ours was once again forbidden." It's also getting a sense of the sentence that the word is in. But that was getting there. Yeah, I think it could even have just a tiny bit more energy but not be any faster.
09:09
[nodding]
09:12
Yeah. We don't wanna give you too many more things to think of. (laughs)
09:18
Let's do it. Take two. Whoops. Rolling.
09:29
Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a magnificent sun and white steps that glistened like magical porcelain. Maybe I remember these things in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. I loved Katherine with all my heart. And I had never known a thrill like running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart, pounding, through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away. I do not know how to describe a look of utter devastation. The stoop of the shoulders, the tremble of the fingers, the reflection in the eyes of a heart that does not know if the next beat is worth taking. But that is what I saw in those couples. And right then and there, we knew. The weddings had been stopped. And that ours was, once again, forbidden. I don't know how long we stood there, unable to move, before Katherine managed to put her head on my shoulder. Then I remember the feel of her tears as they rolled down my breast, leaving tracks over my heart. Before they splattered onto those magical steps that no longer wished our feet to be there. Eventually, we made it home. We got drunk on a bottle of wine, listened to Nat King Cole. As I fell asleep in Katherine's arms, with her palm stroking my face, I wasn't thinking about the politics of it, or the biology of it, or the right and wrong of it. I was too crushed for any of that to matter. That night, all I could think was, but I just wanted to love her. I fell asleep and dreamed about slaves jumping the broom to marry. But I suppose I was really dreaming about just how far this hatred could go.
12:39
The end.
13:45
I know. You wanna switch her legs?
13:50
I think so.
13:53
Cause I'm gonna go for whatever leg is closest to me.
13:55
Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay, that's good.
14:28
See, I'm going to end up pulling myself to her.
14:28
Yeah. [crosstalk] One more time.
14:34
One more time. You wanna stop further away from her.
14:41
Oh, to reach her foot.
14:42
Yeah. Uh-huh.
14:44
Like here?
14:46
A little bit closer so you can get the ankle.
14:50
Uh-huh. And now from there is it possible to drag her?
15:00
And then take [crosstalk] yeah, uh-huh.
15:03
The more you can pull her towards you. Can you stop yourself with your feet in the floor? Taisha, are you okay?
15:10
Yeah, I'm great.
15:12
(laughter)
15:14
You want me to go back to my original position?
15:15
Ah, no.
15:31
I'm not reallyâ
15:34
Grab her a little bit higher and see if that helps.
15:37
Actually, can you go back to your original position?
15:39
Yeah.
15:40
Oh, it's the bent leg.
15:40
Once she gets there it's like-there's almost like an angle(??).
15:47
(unintelligible)
15:49
The original position had the other leg?
15:51
Oh, no. I just meant I had already pulled her once so she was-
15:56
Okay.
16:06
(unintelligible)
16:11
You know what? Yeah, that's good.
16:13
Although, try- we'll figure out how to get the bent leg but switch the bend. Because then what you want to be able to do is-
16:25
You can grab her ankle, and her kneeâ(unintelligible)
16:36
I think visually it wants to be the upstage leg that's bent.
16:42
You want me sliding, Marcus?
16:43
We're gonna have to add a little drama for the desperation. (laughs) I'm thinking of making it more physically harder than it is. And then that's a good estimate of when you put your head on her chest. And then, boom, boom.
17:04
(unintelligible) (laughter)
17:32
Yeah. Uh-huh.
18:12
That's good. Okay.
18:15
(unintelligible)
18:17
Can you hold like you're hanging at the very beginning?
18:20
Oh, we see that clearly, yeah.
18:34
Okay.
18:36
Alright. Ready?
18:40
Mm-hmm.
18:47
Okay, and sound goes in black.
19:10
Grab.
19:14
Lights are fading up.
25:19
Lights fading up on Taisha slowly.
2014 Gesel Mason Interview
00:00
Ask me just that question of, you've heard me talk about it a little, but just what is this thing? Why do it 10 years later?
00:14
Okay. So, what are you doing? I mean why are you still working on this project 10 years later? If it's something that you started 10 years ago and that you did 10 years ago, why is it still happening?
00:30
That is a good question. Why am I still working on this project 10 years later? Actually I was invited to do this project again. In a lot of ways, I've been ... The presenter from University of Albany, Kim, invited me to do this project again. And it's funny, she actually invited me to do it a while ago, and I didn't want to. And I did something instead. But then she came back. She's like, "Are you sure?" [inaudible 00:01:07] like, "For you, Kim, sure."
01:12
But there's something else. I had the opportunity to learn a work by Rennie Harris. And I thought, "This is a continuation of this project. This is a continuation of No Boundaries." When I started thinking about what this, what 10 years could be, I realized I was actually doing an anniversary edition of this project. And when I did that, it was a really great opportunity to rethink what is this now? What does this piece mean now? What does this project mean now, No Boundaries, dance in the vision of contemporary black choreographers? How is this different from what it was 10 years ago?
02:08
And that's a really interesting question. I feel like I've learned a lot from this journey. When I first started this project, I just wanted to dance with some people who I found fascinating and amazing. And they said, "Yes." And this project became a living archive. It became a living, evolving repertory of work. And I realized how important that was and how important it was to keep doing it and keep sharing it with audiences.
02:52
But I feel like I ended up immersing myself in dance history and evolving and living dance history. So, there's pieces from 1940s, and now there's pieces from right now in 2013, and pieces that are coming from different backgrounds, Rennie Harris's pieces using hip-hop and house. And that's so relevant and current. And I love that my body is sort of evolving through all of this as well. So, it's kind of amazing to be part of a living, evolving archive. And I feel like it's influenced my dancing. When I first did this, I wasn't thinking of myself necessarily as a black dancer or someone who does black dance. And yet, through this journey, it's been so amazing to be like, "Yes, I am a black dancer. And that is not all of who I am." And I've always known that, but in some ways, I felt like I was pushing against it because I didn't want to be labeled or seen in a certain way. I didn't want my work or the work of my fellow artists and choreographers or the people I looked up to be seen as a certain way.
04:16
And now, I feel like I embrace it. In a lot of ways, I don't allow myself to be pegged. And I feel like because by doing this work, I have embodied what it means, what black dance is. And I know that it isn't one thing or one idea or one ideal. And I know that it's a label that is placed onto work, and nobody necessarily says, "This is what I'm doing." People do the work. People investigate their cultures, their beings, their identity. And it doesn't make something just identity-based work. It's American work. It's what dance does, investigates, asks questions. And we all ask different questions about different things. And identity sometimes is part of that. And sometimes it has nothing to do with identity. It's beyond that. It's more than that.
05:26
And it's been great to go on that journey through this piece over 10 years and watch my body change and watch myself get older and get a few more gray hairs. It's been a great journey. And I'm actually glad now to have the opportunity to share it, to continue to share it with new audiences and new populations and to do new work and to have it continue to evolve. Yeah, that's really exciting. What else?
06:18
I want to talk a little bit about the video. I gotta contextualize that.
06:22
Okay. Do you want me to sit ... Would it be easier if I sat over there-
06:26
Yeah.
06:26
... so it doesn't feel like there's somebody sitting in the room and you're talking [inaudible 00:06:28].
06:30
[inaudible 00:06:28]. I'm looking at this one dot. I found a dot to look at. Yeah, because otherwise I'll just ramble because it's all coming out of my head. That's what editing's for.
06:41
Yep. Exactly. Tell me about this video that you're making.
07:00
Yeah. When I first started this piece, I didn't necessarily know that I was going to be including documentary footage in between each of the pieces. I knew I wanted to do the work of these choreographers-
07:14
You know what, this is a really good shot. Do you mind if I change the camera angle on this, and then you'll have something to cut back and forth between?
07:19
Sure.
07:20
Because this is actually [inaudible 00:07:21]. Sorry. I don't want to interrupt your flow, but I think it'll make it visually more interesting.
07:27
I will take it. Some things have changed over the past 10 years. New technology. So, now do I look this way?
07:50
No. It's nice to have you looking sort of into the ...
07:53
Yeah.
07:53
So, I'm gonna put this to [inaudible 00:07:56] ... I gotta back up a little bit because I'm too close to you.
08:00
There's no clock in here.
08:02
I know.
08:05
I don't have my phone.
08:06
I've got a phone on me. Hold on a second. It is 2:51.
08:16
Okay.
08:30
So, I think I'll have you still ... If you want to address me this way, I think that'll look good. Yeah. All right [inaudible 00:08:45]. Good. All right, we're rolling again. [inaudible 00:09:10] ask you the question about the video again?
09:20
No. I think I got it. A few things have changed since I did this 10 years ago. A few more gray hairs, just a couple. But also technology has changed quite a bit. When I first did this piece, I didn't know that I was going to be using all the documentary footage in between each of the pieces. So, we were shooting footage, but I didn't necessarily know that they were going to be a part of the show. So, I had my little camera, my little Canon, nothing professional. I think eventually we figured out that we should use microphones.
10:03
There's shots of people sitting in front of light, terrible contrast. But at the same time, it's a part of the archive. It's a part of the piece. And what people were telling us then I think is still really important. But I also want to, as this archive continues to evolve and the repertory continues to grow and change and shift, I also want to continue to add the new video, the new technology. And I really am interested in doing additional interviews and going back and talking to some of the choreographers and finding out how their work has evolved in the last 10 years.
10:54
Some people are doing dance for camera now. Some people have retired. Some people, lives have changed in the past 10 years. And I'm very interested in their reflections about what this work is now, what it was then, what the project means now for them. So, yeah, as a part of this archive, you get to see what we were doing at the very beginning and how the piece evolves all the way up to the present time. And that includes really crazy footage from really old cameras. Yeah.
11:39
Cool.
11:41
Yeah. Anything else? I think some of it was in there on the floor, talking about that using that.
11:49
You got some really cool stuff in there.
11:50
Like I said, that's another image. And in there, I talked about Rennie's piece, and then I talk about the other choreographers. Just talked about the footage, talked about the why of doing it again, even a little bit about the hopes for what this piece is. I might even borrow some of the footage that ... Because I said it. I felt like I said it really clearly for [Erica 00:12:13].
12:13
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sure.
12:16
If that's possible. What else?
12:20
Yeah, she had questions about that, too. I assume all of this footage can ...
12:25
Cross, yeah.
12:25
... go for either thing.
12:26
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it.
12:31
Okay.
12:31
Thank you.
12:34
Yeah. Absolutely.
2015 Jaamil Olawale Kosoko Interview - 2015 Jaamil Olawale Kosoko Interview (1 of 2)
00:00
... but yeah. Improvisation is such a deep part of my current practice, so it'll be what it is.
00:02
You talked about that. I love that you talked about, thinking about this relationship to this project ... It helps me think about audience. We talked about that a little bit, this morning too.
00:10
She's going to be in here?
00:12
Yeah. She didn't have too much, though, did she? But you said how you often word the flow chart is that kind of talk it through ... ?
00:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:16
Of the futurity and the young people. We have this opportunity to craft how we want to be heard.
00:23
Exactly.
00:26
Instead of, let me explain so you can understand and be a part of this conversation. We're going to have this conversation. You get to be witnesses, and we get to ... I don't know who says that, but teach people the way you want to be understood.
00:30
Yeah, a lot of conversations, a lot of visual dramaturgy, a lot of ... yeah, a lot of research, a lot of reading. All of that feels like it's really important to do as we figure out, yeah, just like what is this thing? And then, yeah, then moving into the conceptual space and just making sure that we have a deep understanding of what's happening. I just try to do as much research as possible before entering into the rehearsal space.
00:45
Yeah.
00:46
I appreciated you talking, also, about the young people.
00:51
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:52
What is this conversation 20 years from now?
00:54
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:56
Why it's important. It's continuing to make space for you.
00:59
Exactly.
00:59
The other thing I wanted you to speak to was just your experience of what you saw. Unwrapped is just, again, a tiny part of the larger documentary project we want to do. It almost feels like Unwrapped is a mini version of the larger thing that I want to create.
01:21
So this is just the beginning? You have this performance, but this is the beginning of a rehearsal?
01:26
The Negrophobia piece?
01:33
Yeah.
01:33
You know, it's something that I want to continue. I feel like everything that I do is on a continuum and performances just happen at certain points, depending on where I'm landing in my investigation. So it just seems like, okay, this is an interesting time to bring in other bodies to take witness to what's happening right now. But, yeah, it certainly is ... I mean, we're fresh at the beginning of this thing, but I've known Jerod/I'm a mess for, maybe two years now. So, just to see his career and what's he's doing with performance and yeah, I mean, he just brings like such an interesting flavor.
01:40
Yeah.
01:43
I'm also curious what resonated for you, in the performance, and maybe how those residences are a part of this larger conversation, in terms of what I want to do, however you understand that. What you were left with, what resonated for you in the performance that you saw?
02:12
I think what resonates the most is the musicality. I think there is not only a presence, but a rhythmic understanding, again, that in innately black. Sure, other bodies are able to sync into it and maybe try it on, but witnessing that work, and having these choreographers in conversation with each other, on one bill, these are senior level professionals. This concept of sharing a program just doesn't happen that anymore for them, I imagine.
02:31
So we're rolling, just so you know.
02:34
Yeah. I mean, literally, he was just in [Abisa 00:02:39] doing like go-going in [Abisa 00:02:41] for the past week.
02:34
Wow.
02:43
So this is his life and then he goes to school and does a major shoot for W magazine and then it's like, "Oh, yeah. I can do your show." I'm like, "Thank you." So, yeah. It's been really good. He's only like a year or two younger than me, so some interesting stuff. And just this whole beautiful visual world that he brings to the work is just, I'm like, "Wow." What he can do with a paintbrush and a face, I'm like, "What? What?" So yeah.
03:14
Again, there's this wonderful opportunity to compare and contrast all of these voices, and all of these really complex ways in with rhythm and emotion, presence, fluidity, all of these performance strategies, that I think certainly rise from African people. To see all of that happening, I think is really rich.
03:34
That's interesting. It's interesting, the #negrophobia is interesting because as part of my school, something came up, I've been calling it hophobia, and what I realized is that you can have IHOP, which is internalized ho phobia, fear of being perceived as a ho, for being a ho, for being perceived as a ho. So that has come out of my work, this idea of ho phobia. So it was interesting to hear you say negrophobia, because that's been something that's been percolating in my work, this idea of ho phobia.
04:12
I'm also curious about how ... Something about beauty and trauma, and the parallel of these two physic spaces, how they enter the room together for this dance. This constant negotiation is seen. That will probably be one of the strongest through lines that I would make. Beyond the musicality is this idea of trying to access this beauty, and be sincere to this trauma that is also very present.
04:23
How did you come to that language?
04:27
Well, the piece that I did before this one, which is called antithesis, was also exploring a lot with women and sexuality and what's appropriate and what isn't. And it was called Women, Sex, and Desire, Sometimes you feel like a ho and sometimes you don't. And I'm the kind of person, I was like, "Well, if I'm going to say some thing like sometimes you feel like a ho and sometimes you don't, then I need to talk to some hos. And so I was doing some work in D.C. with sex workers and whatnot and I'm also of the mind like there are not as many degrees of separation as people like to put between us and [crosstalk 00:05:16] ...
05:11
The work is very complex, beautiful understood and embodied. That's a given. The execution, amazing. In regards to the content, there is this beauty and this trauma, and this constant negotiation between the two. Yeah.
05:16
Totally, yeah.
05:17
And in all my work, I'm actually very interested in this, what we keep secret, what's considered taboo, which is also part of that secret, and how we create otherness. It's sort of like underneath all of these questions. And how do we live, love, and persevere, just in general. So when I did this work, again, it's like when you interact with other people, I just lean so much from them.
05:44
Yeah, that's powerful. I'm curious about your relationship to the work with some other African American choreographers.
05:52
And also, it's just so interesting to see the questions that they struggle with. I was like that is everybody's question, like, "What will my partner think of me if they know blank blank, blank, blank, blank? How do I, with my own self-image, did I sell out? Can you hold these questions, can you hold onto yourself even if this is the thing that you're doing?" Like, how can you be like, "Yeah. No, I have to do this and I'm okay"?
05:56
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:00
How they all have different approaches. I was asking [Defrance 00:06:04]. Did somebody take your water?
06:10
Yeah.
06:11
Do you want one? [crosstalk 00:06:14]
06:11
Thank you.
06:20
I'm interested in where there's this sort of larger question of trauma. I'm like, "Who is actually traumatizing us?" Do you know? Like, these things are going to keep happening, they happen, they change, they evolve, but they are still happening, so I'm like, the thing that I can control is me and my thinking, so how do I, when I see those images, when I hear that story again, when I feel like you want to leave something in the past, but it's like how do I every single time take that hold and move forward, not in a forgiving sort of way, and definitely honoring that moment and that life and that presence and all of that and that violence.
06:27
How all these different people approach the work, including, I am a mess.
06:31
Yeah.
06:32
Different ways that people are engaging with this question, the difference between Bebe and [Jowalay 00:06:42].
06:42
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:47
Coming from completely different ways, I guess, even talking about, what is dance? What is contemporary dance? People who, again, wouldn't put their blackness in the forefront.
06:58
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:59
Yet, they are a part of this cannon.
07:01
Yeah.
07:03
I'm wondering about people that you've worked with, how you think they are contributing to this conversation, without like, I am contributing to this conversation.
07:13
But how do I not keep re-traumatizing myself and compounding? Because then it's like it's impossible. Do you know? It's impossible. So, just that idea of a ho phobia and working with those women and then working with the women that I worked with to create the piece, just this deep fear of being perceived as a ho. Like, I don't want to be by my partner, by society, and so all of these things that end up being off-limits, and this is how I ended up getting to antithesis and this exploration of the erotic and the exploration of pleasure.
07:17
Excuse me.
07:19
Including the people on this project. It's larger than the people we saw on stage. Then people who aren't in this project, of course. I'm wondering if you could speak to other work, and the way that it feels like it's also in conversation with ...
07:34
Yeah. I'm just dropping all kinds of things. I feel like we can't really have this conversation without being aware that, from the inception of what has become known, or codified, as this term of black dance in the present moment, this intrusion of the digital realm literally came and cloaked everything. We're existing in this post-internet era, and that carries a lot of weight, because that means that what is African American ... There is no African American, really.
07:58
And that's also generational, too, Is that a reclamation of the word? For me, it's more recognizing whether it's an internalized fear or something that you continue to impose on yourself. When is it put off limits because I'm afraid of being perceived as a ho? I'm afraid of being perceived as somebody who sells myself, I'm afraid of being perceived as somebody's who's less-than, who's giving herself away, who's ...
08:33
Yeah. I think, also we can't have this conversation without understand that there's a lot of subliminal messaging that's being pumped into young women and a lot of young women of color in the U.S., from the moment you enter into the world. So, with this fear of being perceived in a very specific way, there's also the complexities of wanting to be desirable, wanting to be beautiful, how do you discover your own sense of beauty, one that is of itself and unto itself and not necessarily derivative of a European aesthetic?
08:38
There's global discourse of what can be taken and understood. I guess, what I'm getting at is how technology affects identity, and the way understand identity, and the way we construct identity. What is African American? Is in conversation with, What is Canadian? That's in conversation with, what is Caribbean? That's in conversation with what is African, and what is European and Asian? It's become very difficult, in the present moment, to cleanly name, because we are getting inspiration from this globalized identity. This effects, deeply, how young people think about themselves and identify, because now, whether I know an artist or not, I can see what Nelisiwe is doing in South Africa, or what Danais doing in Quebec, what Gerard is doing in London. All of that is part of my African American juice now.
09:36
Yeah, I mean so all of these questions begin to bubble up and cause a lot of really interesting, hard, complex self-questioning and a deep dilemma. I just wanted to sort of add that in there, because it's not as though this is a dialogue within a vacuum. There is all of these other side-optics that are playing a role in the way you have come to know yourself and to perceive yourself in the world.
10:20
How do we think that translates into this project, to this negrophobia, ho phobia, but not even so much that, but the side things that continue to influence the way that we think about the Black body, the Black body in performance, because trauma? The complexity of presenting the body in what spaces. What comes up when we think about, I guess, maybe the complexity of one presenting the Black body with a Black body in performance? What are some of these things?
10:39
I think that's really exciting. Even the way in which I think we make work has changed, because we have access to these archives, whether it be via YouTube or whatever. This is easily accessible information now. It's not something that you have to get in your car and go to the library to get. It's so easy to get this information. I think I've lost my train of thought.
11:21
My gist is just that we've globalized, and that affects, deeply, the creative process. I think that complicates how we view what is African American now. I think maybe in a good way. It's needed. Yeah. I'll stop there.
11:31
What comes up for me is context. Who am I in dialogue with? Whose eyes will be on the work? How is this work being framed? How does it need to be framed for a specific audience? Yeah, all of these are questions, which is why, for me, and sort of how I approach any project, I'm literally thinking about the site. I'm thinking about the weight, the history of the environment.
11:58
Then just the part about some of the ...
12:01
Artists.
12:01
Artists, yeah.
12:02
That I'm excited by or looking at.
12:05
Or even experienced.
12:10
Or experienced, yeah. Oh, yeah. Also, did I answer the question about ... Yeah, I think I did answer it. I went into what was on stage. Yeah, I did answer that question.
12:16
And then I'm thinking about, "What do I add to that site? What do I bring to the space? What does it need? What has been here? What hasn't been here?" All of that becomes context for me in how I'm seeing, in how I'm participating, how I'm choosing to present what I choose to present. Which is why Black Male Revisited, as it began in Miami, that project, what it was was in Miami.
12:20
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
12:23
When you say experiencing, are these artists that I feel just a connection to, or ...
12:30
Or even the larger question of, both historically and currently, artists that you feel, from Bill T to Bebe, to names that we don't know, how they intersect with this question, even though ... Like with Bebe there's a big pushing ... Like what you said, that black is part of the texture, but it's not the nature of the work.
13:01
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:03
Black Male Revisited, Revenge of the New Negro, that happened in Miami, and it happened there because there were a number of perimeters that situated itself inside of because it had to push against this environment that's specific to Miami. And then, what it became when it went to New York and re-situated in a [inaudible 00:13:31], suddenly Revenge of the New Negro became Experiment to Representations through the Ephemeral Form.
13:03
When we did How Can You Stay in the House All Day and Not Go Anywhere with Ralph, or no, Come Home Charley Patton, there were people who were like, he's finally doing something black. I was like, that's fascinating. Then, I really appreciated being part of How Can You Stay in the House, just because that was the first time I had ever been in an all black company.
13:14
It had everything to do with being black.
13:27
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:28
The work we were doing was inherently black and also had nothing to do with being black.
13:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:39
Of course, yeah.
13:39
It's not about a thing, but part of where it was stemming from was the loss of his partner.
13:42
And then breaking this thing open for a number of other bodies to participate, and what does that mean to have all of these Brown and Black and queer bodies in a critical mass congregate in a major convening, discussing issues of masculinity and Black identity and all of this within a predominantly white, historically white presenting space.
13:44
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:50
We created this movement practice, that had a lot to do ... We called it fury, but it was fury that doesn't anger. It's fury that is that passion, that is uncontrollable, yet it's contained.
14:08
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:08
He was interested in the formless.
14:11
Yeah.
14:11
How do you make the body disappear? We're also dealing with the ravages of cancer. It doesn't say, wait, hold on a second. I'm not ready.
14:19
So, I have to think. I can't help but be aware of the perimeters in which I'm situating a project. So continuing this thing, it goes to Miami, it becomes Black Male Revisited, Songs for the Dark Divine. I know I'm being curated as a part of a music series, so there is this idea of musicality and emotionality and all of this stuff that I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about surveillance and optics and how do people look at me and how do I look at them. What is a song, what is a song for the Dark Divine? Understanding how Philly can be super segregated, just all of these things play a part in the way I go into a venue and what I present. I rarely, if ever, am able to present the same thing twice. I don't know how to do that, because for me, live performance, it's living. And so, I feel like I have to honor the fact that this is a living thing. So I have to make sure that I've created each experience is of itself. There's something very unique about each moment, each presentation, that's different from what it was and what it will be. And so I think even for Unwrap and No Boundaries to be situated in Colorado, we're aware that we're pushing up against so much history, so much complexities around viewership of Black and Brown people, the consumption of those bodies.
14:23
Exactly.
14:24
You have these black bodies doing movement that was hard, that was painful to the people doing it, and yet we're trying to find joy and make our bodies disappear. It is hard, and it hurts.
14:40
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:40
We argued with him, but he was a part of that process. It was all of that.
14:46
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:48
But audiences watching it would get so angry, and then you had [Oakly 00:14:52] crying for 12 minutes.
14:54
Yeah.
14:55
In a deep wailing.
14:58
Yeah.
14:59
In countries, there are professional wailers.
15:02
Yeah.
15:04
I need somebody professional to get to this level of grief. She put herself there. She did the work, and she cried for 12 minutes. It was not comfortable, and people left and all of that stuff. What was interesting was people's responses to these black bodies doing what we were doing.
15:20
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
15:22
All of a sudden, the conversation was that same thing, where you're like, there's this thing that we're doing, but all of a sudden it was this violence against the black body. You'd hear some people's response. These were white people, who were having this response. The Civil Rights movement. All of this stuff came. It's not that it's not there, but that is not what this is about.
15:26
Is about, yeah.
15:57
Ralph also was like, there's no resistance to that.
16:02
Of course, yeah.
16:04
Or like Bebe does Rain. She's wearing a red dress, and it's green. She's black, and it's the colors of ... You know. I'm thinking, also, about these ways that we do the work, and you don't forget your blackness, or even just wanting to be this body on stage.
16:26
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
16:28
I actually tried to do a project. I was like, can I actually make a dance where the first thing you don't see ... It was an experiment. It was an assignment, and I was just curious if I could do this work without being ...
16:43
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Perceived as black.
16:47
Perceived as black. I knew it was impossible, but I just wanted to ... What if?
16:48
How does one begin to even move in the world and be ... Even something as simple as the altitude, so much that a part of innately ingrained in the environment is very separate from what Black and Brown people need to be comfortable in a space. You know what I mean, so it's just like a human being in Colorado, I'm like, "Oh my goodness." Anyway, that's some other conversation, but you know what I mean.
16:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
16:57
I guess, I'm thinking about different artists, how they've been in conversation with that question. You can't stop being black, but ti isn't about that. I don't know. It's that complex, what you're talking about.
17:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
17:16
I'm just wondering about your experience with either artists that you've worked with or artists that you've seen, or even personally. You talked a little bit about your personal ...
17:26
Some of my connections, yeah.
17:27
And not to say that we can't push against that and make space. That's a part of the resistance, that's a part of the work that we're doing is creating space where space has historically been misrepresented or for individuals who have historically been misrepresented or left out of a particular dialogue. But yeah, I think there are a number of through-lines that are happening with your research and how I'm thinking, which is why I think this is such a really nice ... I don't know, it's such a nice platform to talk about this stuff.
17:28
Yeah. How you also see other artists in conversation with this. I guess it's that conversation of black dance.
17:36
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well ...
17:39
That's a lot.
17:42
Yeah. Where to begin [crosstalk 00:17:44]. I know, right? Go. Yeah. I guess what I think about is this idea of, when you are in the company of blackness, or in relationship to blackness, you are less concerned being black or representing a kind of blackness, because it's a given. It's understood. There's a comfortability.
18:13
Well I was actually wondering if you would talk a little more about that, through the intersections that you see, because I've heard you say how, when we were talking about this just this morning, often a part of a panel to be invited to contribute, and a lot of times we're the one representative, or whatever.
18:17
That doesn't become ... Like that thing Toni Morrison talks about, with not writing for white people. I'm writing for black people. If, heaven forbids, there are things that you don't understand, well, figure it out or ask a question, whatever you have to do. That's your work. My audience understand where this is coming from.
18:43
But what has been nice in terms of being a part of this? And also, the reasons why it's important to you. You spoke a little bit to the ways that it's intersecting with your work. Why is it nice to be a part of something like this and in what ways does it deal with some of the questions that you're also dealing with?
18:58
I think, as artists, and many of us have already, when we allow ourselves, when we are in that process of just being and not having to explain, or defend, or whatever number of other issues arise, as a product of creating performance, when you release yourself from that thing that's legible, which is something that I had to do if I was going to be able to participate in this industry ... I had to let go of any need of being legible. Even more, allowing my eligibility to be center stage, and to celebrate it as a complicated through line unto itself. This eligibility is actually what's the most exciting thing about this work. It's innately me. It's unique.
19:11
Sure. I think one of the first things that come to mind is the importance of travel and leaving my hub of making and research and that's very specific to an urban, dare I say, middle class, educated culture? I feel like there's a very specific way Black people perform themselves in Manhattan, in Brooklyn, in Harlem, in Philly. So, being aware of the performativity and how that affects me and what I make, and then, having the ability to distance myself from that, allows me this opportunity to become even more aware of that and to begin another dialogue in another environment with another set of questions that can only feed and inspire what I'm already cooking up.
20:29
All of that comes up, for me, as I sort of grappled with finding my place, and how I understand myself in this society. Making sure that I stay in conversation with artist who are asking these questions. Even more, asking questions that I too am curious about. Essentially, all of this research just pushes the form ahead. Yeah. That's what I have to say.
20:37
It only makes the work richer to know how these questions are being grappled with throughout the U.S. and the globe really, how artists in South Africa are thinking about ballet and European aesthetics on African bodies and the female body, as opposed to what's happening in The Netherlands and the U.S. and the Caribbean.
21:04
And I am fortunate enough to have had an opportunity to travel to some of these places and witness how this work is living on these different bodies and how we're all asking very similar questions, but the execution, which is the most fascinating part is what really continues to inspire me and make me ... I really light up because I'm like, "Wow. I would have never approach this concept of Black identity from this particular angle or this particular vantage point," or whatever.
21:25
Good.
21:29
Yeah.
21:30
Thank you so much.
21:30
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
21:30
Can we take a moment for room tone?
21:30
Oh, yes.
21:31
I'm going to record some room tones
21:32
Okay.
21:32
We just have to be super quiet for 30 seconds.
21:34
Let me just finish that gulp. Now we can record.
21:43
All right. Perfect, thanks.
21:54
An artists who I've been following for maybe two, three years now, her name is Dana Michelle, based in Quebec, is doing some really interesting work with her own body as a Black woman situated in Canada, really pushing forth some almost [Butos 00:22:23]/performance art/ absurdist, clown. I mean, just the way these forms are just really intricately mixing up all in one body, all converging in one body. Again, this idea of how the Black body as a container for so many different realms, so many varying dimensions and ways of being in the present moment, this cyclical, just constant consistency ...
22:12
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know, Gesel, this idea of legible, illegible, was a major point of departure for me when I was co-curating the spring festival in New York, the Movement Research Festival. We title it Legible Illegible, opening beyond the space of identities. That, as a platform, again, unto itself, to allow this opening, to say, is it even possible to enter a space without the weight of identity? Is that possible?
22:55
As a provocation, let's just put that forth and see. As viewers, as witnesses to this work, let's just attempt to see without this psychotic idea of race, having to bear it's ugly head. Can we do that?
23:02
I'm tripping over my words, but just this ability to be in so many different psychic places simultaneously, I think that is something that I'm super curious about, because it's a way of performing that I have yet to see, I guess, be appropriated by European aesthetics or ways of being. I have yet to see it. I'm not saying that it's not happening. I just have yet to see that amount of complexity be carried simultaneously. And I think much of this has to do with our sheer history, just having ... W.B. DuBois talks about this, this double consciousness, and then you put the female perspective on that, it becomes this triple consciousness. All of these consciousness having to converge simultaneously.
23:26
That's a question ... I really like that. Sometimes I ask myself this question. Who would we be without our history?
23:37
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
23:39
Not an erasure, but that baggage, that thing, that huge thing, which I think is what our young people are like, do I really [crosstalk 00:23:47]
23:47
All the dysfunctional parts of our history.
23:50
Right, exactly. The things that label you. It cuts off possibility.
23:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
23:55
Just the space of the, what if?
23:57
Yeah.
23:57
Which is the question of the legibility and illegibility.
24:00
Yeah.
24:00
What if?
24:00
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:05
The other thing, when I was creating this work, is I kept seeing students continue to struggle with the same thing.
24:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:15
Next year, same thing. Next year, same thing. I did my solo, that I made a long time ago, that was called No Less Black. It was almost like, okay, let's take into consideration the fact of blackness, and now what?
24:23
And then so for you to put forth this proposal, certainly aware of your history, how it converges with the histories of these dynamic artists, historic artists, it just feels so relevant, so needed. But I am questioning, what is the conversation that we want to ... How do we want to go about shaping this thing so that young people 15, 20 years from now can look at this thing and be like, "Oh, this is how this really pertains to what I'm thinking of, how I'm moving in the world"? How does this framework create a kind of map that allows all of these folks to have a way to locate themselves and these ideas?
24:32
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:34
Young people are coming up to me, going, thank you. I made that piece in 1999.
24:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:39
They're like, thank you.
24:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:39
I feel that way. What people expect of me. If I do that, then I'm not black enough and I'm not representing my heritage. From this one end, it's like, I'm not honoring where I came from, and then on this end, I'm trying to just be me.
24:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:55
When work gets created, I feel like work ends up being burdened with this idea of [crosstalk 00:25:08]. Not just blackness, but all of these ism's that we have.
25:11
Exactly.
25:12
The women are making work about being angry. The black people make work ... And it's real. These are real issues that we are all grappling with, the freedom.
25:25
Yeah.
25:25
Where that freedom comes in, to be able to make that-
25:29
Exactly. Which you have to create yourself. Nina, as we know, she says it's no fear. No fear. How do you go into a space with no fear, and create from that place? These are questions that I'm really excited about, creating my own sense of freedom, the ritual of performance, the proximity of bodies, and the ways in which we create a kind of space that is acceptable to all ways of being, all ways of life, that utopian space that we want to live in, the sacred ability of even creating a space. All of this stuff, stuff I was teaching this whole week, which I think might have gone over some of their heads. Okay, whatever.
25:50
One of the things you talked about and that you noted in the project as well is the curatorial aspect. And I'm curious what you find when thinking about that in this project?
26:11
Of course. I would love to talk about that. There's this idea of time that's being curated, of generations. Like the time signatures of all of these works and juxtaposing that to this sort of intergenerational academic posse that you have cycling around this project. It's very thoughtful. Some of the leading scholars working today are thinking about these things and pushing your ideas, challenging your ideas.
26:32
I think, maybe, 10 years from now or whenever, they will come back to these same things. That's your core. That's the place from which you can really open and express, and offer something.
26:47
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:49
I love the amount of white bodies that are in the room, or self-perceived as such, because I'm like, yeah, you too have identity. You are not without identity. You can make work about who you are.
27:05
And you are.
27:06
Yeah.
27:06
You are doing that.
27:07
Exactly, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:10
I had them write these manifestos, because I was like, there's something you believe in, there's something you believe, there's something you find, there's something you're attracted to, there's something that you're pushing against.
27:17
This is not easy material, by no means, to take on. And so it requires a very deep analysis, and I think you've done a terrific job of bringing in some folks who are coming from a number of vantage points into this dialogue, challenging you, challenging each other, maybe even challenging the forum itself, which is, I feel like, sort of my role within this. I feel the way in which I'm thinking about performance and dance, I don't know if it's the same way as the way you're thinking about it, especially in my execution and how I use dance, literally just as a texture within a performance. The dance is not the performance.
27:18
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:20
That no fear, I think all of that is at the heart of this exploration of the erotic.
27:26
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:28
Where the space is, where we can create and practice, and embody this idea of the erotic, as Audre Lorde calls it, this extreme joy.
27:38
Joy, yes.
27:39
The audacity of that kind of joy in your body.
27:44
Yeah.
27:44
We have to make [crosstalk 00:27:45]
27:45
Yes.
27:46
-spaces where you're not policed.
27:47
Exactly. We get so used to that policing, I think.
27:51
You talk about that surveillance, yeah.
27:54
Exactly. It's almost as if our bodies sort of take on this ... Dare I say ... This may be on the record, may be off the record. What I love about David, specifically in the context of this entire evening, is this ability to allow the ugly to be present, which I think so many of us are afraid of. If that fears continues to rear its ugly head, then the work cannot be liberated, and it can't decolonize, because we still are obsessed with being beautiful on stage.
28:28
And so, the same as this idea of Blackness as a texture within performance, and not the performance. I feel as if I use Blackness as a kind of material, but by no means do I feel as if the work that I'm making is limited or restricted by me being a man of color. And I think I have to accredit the work of all of the scholars that are around this project, all of the artists that you're working with, you. I mean, so many people who have allowed me to be able to make work that is ... I mean, dare I say, radical? I mean, this is language that other people are telling me is it's radical. I'm like, "I don't think it's even possible to be particularly radical anymore on the stage."
28:58
That was something that I do want to say about David specifically, and why I was particularly attracted to that work. He allows the ugly in, which is truthful. There's this idea of truth, that comes as a result. Yeah. Some of the other pieces, they're beautiful, but I'm like, okay.
29:26
But I'm told that there's a lot of radical politics that are coming off of this work. But there's no way that I could even make what I make without ... and let alone have it be presented ... That's a whole other conversation ... without paying homage and attention to all of the artists who have come before me. And so, this project, again, helps me to land and to understand the conversation that I'm continuing, to have a deep sense of the historical and where I've been and what was and what has come before that has allowed me to be such a radical presence and to break so many rules.
29:27
Renny too. I fell like Renny has these strands of ugly that he's still fleshing out, particularly in that work that we saw. Me, I make work from the ugly.
29:44
I like ugly too. I do. That's one of the [crosstalk 00:29:50]
29:51
It's five after three.
29:53
Okay. Yes, uh-huh. The work from Donald McKayle, that I picked.
30:02
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:03
Again, Angelitos Negros is the ...
30:05
Yes.
30:06
I was like, there are some beautiful people. They should do that work.
30:09
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:10
Let me do this work. Let me do that.
30:11
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:20
I'm not ...
30:21
Yeah.
30:23
I had a review that actually commented on that too. She's not afraid to be ugly.
30:25
That brings up two things for me. One, is the reminder that Tommy De France gave us about how things interrupt. Now that is a crucial and exciting part of this conversation. How do each one of these pieces when they were created, what they do now, how they continue to interrupt?
30:28
Yeah.
30:30
There's something that's so visceral.
30:34
Yes.
30:34
It's the strange reason I enjoy doing David's work.
30:38
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:39
I like being chained and [crosstalk 00:30:43]
30:43
Yeah.
30:45
There's something [crosstalk 00:30:46]
30:46
It transcends.
30:48
Well, it makes it real. I have bruises. It hurts. It makes it so that it's visceral. I think that's something, even when I'm trying to do Diane's piece, I'm interested in the visceral.
31:02
Yes, which is innately Black. I think that was the other part of that conversation that I really gravitated to is the Black body as an interrupter. How do we as Black bodies interrupt this environment, the space? The history of performance, the history of dance, the history of Blacks in dance. And so I'm so aware of myself as being a deep interrupter. I'm not even going to shy away from that. I know I'm interrupting so many things and I'm making a lot of people very uncomfortable. Should he be calling a piece #negrophobia? That's already interrupting the kind of, I don't know, quaint sensibility that dance has a way of taking, especially when we think about it as a socio-political methodology, I suppose.
31:03
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
31:03
I'm trying to ... I'm thinking about the ritual of pulling up from the earth.
31:11
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
31:12
It's got to be real.
31:13
Exactly.
31:14
Ti's got to be real.
31:15
Exactly. Yeah.
31:18
I'm going to let you be free and go off.
31:20
All right. I'll see you tonight.
31:32
Yes. [crosstalk 00:31:33] Who thought that was a good idea?
31:37
I hope I offered something of relevance. I always get so nervous [inaudible 00:31:43].
31:42
We'll probably cut most of that.
32:13
And so to just have, I don't know, the guts, to just say, "You know what? I'm going to take on this. I'm just going to call it what it is. I'm going to own the fact that a lot of white eyes are going to come to see this work and that I'm intentionally making work that is in response to Black identity and Black ideas and Black people. You can certainly watch and be a witness, please, but I'm going to explicitly own the fact that there's a conceit that I'm investigating and I want you to be a part of this."
33:09
"We want you to be a part of this dialogue, certainly. There is space for you here, but we also want you to come correct to this dialogue. So do the work that you need to do so that you can come correct to this. So if that means Googling #negrophobia to figure out okay, what is the history of this thing, to allow yourself to not be privileged enough to just enter a space blindly without any sort of sense of care or historical relevance to what you're about to lie your eyes on."
33:50
The act of participating in dance and as a viewer, as a witness, is an active one. This is not going to be a passive piece of entertainment for you to just sort of sit back and smile. Like I'm not trying to ease your sensibilities in that way. And so I feel like all of that, just owning, all of that within the title. And again, this idea of interrupting and being a radicalist and not being something that there seems to be space for now due to this history. And so that's how I'm thinking about it and what my role is in this continuum.
34:48
I think that's the other thing that I was thinking about when we were talking at [inaudible 00:34:52] today. This idea about freedom. So, it's easy to go, "Oh, that's old school." But the time at which it was made, there's this forging ahead, which is where I think whatever label makes sense, something gets called something because it keeps ... And then that can become the difference. Also, we talked about, which is true, our language tends to want to fix so that I understand it, and that dance is about flexibility in many ways. I'm always talking about, like so what does it mean as we continue to change and evolve and you have white bodies doing historically ...
35:50
Black farms or Africanist farms, yeah.
35:55
And how sometimes you're like, "How do I feel about that? I'm not sure." And at the same time, as artists, we also have this desire to not be marked ... Like I love this thing that you're saying like Blackness is a texture, dance is a texture. It's not the things. There's this whole other thing, but of course, that's in there. You don't subtract it.
36:17
Of course.
36:17
It can't subtracted.
36:18
Of course.
36:19
It's a reality.
36:19
Of course.
36:21
But also the freedom to be able to do this work came from the people who are continually are on the forefront, being labeled, being named, being put in a box, breaking out of that box, reconfiguring the box, moving forward, calling it something different, et cetera, et cetera. And you see the work that continually needs to be done of the forging ahead, of the interrupting and I think that's something that's exciting to think about in terms of the way that performance and Black bodies continue to interrupt what we perceive as ... I guess that's part of it, that's where the racism sort of comes in, there's a structure, because it wouldn't be an interruption if it was actually seen as, "Oh this is the norm."
37:17
Exactly, exactly. And so we innately bring with us these histories. There is no way that we can exist without our histories, and these are histories that are super complex and hard and forces dominant culture to accept, or maybe not accept, but at least be forced to recognize that it has been actively a part of excluding, like actively been a part of excluding, which is a violent act unto itself.
38:11
So we have an Obama that's able to come into office and all of the weight of that and the politics and all of that. Like what he represents as an idea, as a man, as a human, all of these things. And then we see how suddenly, again, this ability to sort of exist in multiple ways, to have all of these different airs about himself, so that he can be the politician and stand and be respected and all of these things and then also be recognizable to his own community and not be perceived as a sell-out or whatever and be educated but also very much like the guy who could easily be living next door to you. This recognizability that he's bringing, all of these ways of being.
39:19
This is not about Obama, clearly, but I just think, as an example, as a catalyst for just how we're always in the process of being firsts, even in this 2015, we're still creating these firsts, which is interrupting whatever the norm is. Yeah, I don't know if that adds anything, but I just wanted to own that. We're still making history. We're still making history.
40:08
So what's important about having that through a Black lens? So it's like, okay, we talk about the way that we continue to change, we [crosstalk 00:40:19]. Why performance? Why dance? Why the body? Why ... And I mean, as we see, we're pulling from all these people. Why look at this through the lens of Black performance theory?
40:41
When we say this, are we speaking to ... How are you defining this? What is this?
40:50
That's a good question, actually. Well, I actually think I'm thinking about society, because we were talking about Obama, we're talking about 2105, we're talking about being firsts, interrupting spaces, places, cultures, structures. So it feels like we're talking about societal ...
41:15
Sure, got you.
41:16
And then I think another part of this is destructive in the sense of, well why look at something like ... So there's kind of two thises, theses, thises that are happening. The, in general, why look at Black performance? And then, why, because I think it's a little bit, also, speaking to this question that I have been asking which continues to evolve and shape of this like, well, is it worth having this question about Black dance?
41:51
And there feels like there's two different type of definitions, the one that put us in the box of describing the specific period of time that somebody else was one, the expressive form, and this question of what is it that Black people are doing and making and creating that is still relevant to larger conversations? So, yeah, the this of performativity, Black expressive arts and society and what about this project also ... Is it important? Why is it important? Just that question, important.
42:36
Well, it's always important. It'll be important until the end of time. I think why it's important to view these topics through the lens of Blackness is, well one, it lets young people know that even as we create these firsts, okay, there is space for you being created. You will be able to fully participate or participate more fully in your humanity because these questions are being asked now of the present moment. You will be able to disrupt in whichever you choose or need to disrupt because these previous disruptions and interruptions have taken place. So again, this idea of being aware that we are existing along a continuum, this is not something that's just in a vacuum.
43:49
So that sort of addresses, I think, the societal question. And then, just thinking about dance and Blackness and ... It's twofold, because, of course, I know that this thing is existing with a lot of stereotypes, a lot of constructs, a lot of preordained prescriptions. So that's a given. But also, there is this rich complexity of experience and vitality and struggle that has lead forth to what we see displayed on the stage. And so again, this idea of Black forms being linked, socio-politically to larger issues that are happening in the world. I think that is the beautiful thing about what makes something Black.
45:16
Again, I keep going back to this idea of this multiplicity, but as a delve more into this concept, I just keep going back to that, this ability to do all of these things simultaneously. That's so rare and gorgeous. I mean, it's the answer that I keep going back to, because it's kind of on my mind right now. I've thought about this, but I'm like, "Oh, of course." Like, we can live in our joy and our struggle. Like, the two are not going to be separated. Yeah, that complexity of identity that is Black, I think is really excited. But that said, I do need to check my watch.
46:16
I actually just, I heard it ...
46:17
It's actually a quarter after two.
46:19
A quarter after? Oh, shit.
46:23
Sorry.
46:23
It's all right.
46:26
I saw Kate just go two, and I thought she meant it was two right now.
46:30
It's okay. It's only 13 minutes after.
2015 Jaamil Olawale Kosoko Interview - 2015 Jaamil Olawale Kosoko Interview (2 of 2)
00:02
You talked about that. I love that you talked about, thinking about this relationship to this project ... It helps me think about audience. We talked about that a little bit, this morning too.
00:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:16
Of the futurity and the young people. We have this opportunity to craft how we want to be heard.
00:23
Exactly.
00:26
Instead of, let me explain so you can understand and be a part of this conversation. We're going to have this conversation. You get to be witnesses, and we get to ... I don't know who says that, but teach people the way you want to be understood.
00:45
Yeah.
00:46
I appreciated you talking, also, about the young people.
00:51
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:52
What is this conversation 20 years from now?
00:54
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
00:56
Why it's important. It's continuing to make space for you.
00:59
Exactly.
00:59
The other thing I wanted you to speak to was just your experience of what you saw. Unwrapped is just, again, a tiny part of the larger documentary project we want to do. It almost feels like Unwrapped is a mini version of the larger thing that I want to create.
01:40
Yeah.
01:43
I'm also curious what resonated for you, in the performance, and maybe how those residences are a part of this larger conversation, in terms of what I want to do, however you understand that. What you were left with, what resonated for you in the performance that you saw?
02:12
I think what resonates the most is the musicality. I think there is not only a presence, but a rhythmic understanding, again, that in innately black. Sure, other bodies are able to sync into it and maybe try it on, but witnessing that work, and having these choreographers in conversation with each other, on one bill, these are senior level professionals. This concept of sharing a program just doesn't happen that anymore for them, I imagine.
03:14
Again, there's this wonderful opportunity to compare and contrast all of these voices, and all of these really complex ways in with rhythm and emotion, presence, fluidity, all of these performance strategies, that I think certainly rise from African people. To see all of that happening, I think is really rich.
04:12
I'm also curious about how ... Something about beauty and trauma, and the parallel of these two physic spaces, how they enter the room together for this dance. This constant negotiation is seen. That will probably be one of the strongest through lines that I would make. Beyond the musicality is this idea of trying to access this beauty, and be sincere to this trauma that is also very present.
05:11
The work is very complex, beautiful understood and embodied. That's a given. The execution, amazing. In regards to the content, there is this beauty and this trauma, and this constant negotiation between the two. Yeah.
05:44
Yeah, that's powerful. I'm curious about your relationship to the work with some other African American choreographers.
05:56
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:00
How they all have different approaches. I was asking [Defrance 00:06:04]. Did somebody take your water?
06:10
Yeah.
06:11
Do you want one? [crosstalk 00:06:14]
06:11
Thank you.
06:27
How all these different people approach the work, including, I am a mess.
06:31
Yeah.
06:32
Different ways that people are engaging with this question, the difference between Bebe and [Jowalay 00:06:42].
06:42
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:47
Coming from completely different ways, I guess, even talking about, what is dance? What is contemporary dance? People who, again, wouldn't put their blackness in the forefront.
06:58
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
06:59
Yet, they are a part of this cannon.
07:01
Yeah.
07:03
I'm wondering about people that you've worked with, how you think they are contributing to this conversation, without like, I am contributing to this conversation.
07:17
Excuse me.
07:19
Including the people on this project. It's larger than the people we saw on stage. Then people who aren't in this project, of course. I'm wondering if you could speak to other work, and the way that it feels like it's also in conversation with ...
07:34
Yeah. I'm just dropping all kinds of things. I feel like we can't really have this conversation without being aware that, from the inception of what has become known, or codified, as this term of black dance in the present moment, this intrusion of the digital realm literally came and cloaked everything. We're existing in this post-internet era, and that carries a lot of weight, because that means that what is African American ... There is no African American, really.
08:38
There's global discourse of what can be taken and understood. I guess, what I'm getting at is how technology affects identity, and the way understand identity, and the way we construct identity. What is African American? Is in conversation with, What is Canadian? That's in conversation with, what is Caribbean? That's in conversation with what is African, and what is European and Asian? It's become very difficult, in the present moment, to cleanly name, because we are getting inspiration from this globalized identity. This effects, deeply, how young people think about themselves and identify, because now, whether I know an artist or not, I can see what Nelisiwe is doing in South Africa, or what Danais doing in Quebec, what Gerard is doing in London. All of that is part of my African American juice now.
10:39
I think that's really exciting. Even the way in which I think we make work has changed, because we have access to these archives, whether it be via YouTube or whatever. This is easily accessible information now. It's not something that you have to get in your car and go to the library to get. It's so easy to get this information. I think I've lost my train of thought.
11:21
My gist is just that we've globalized, and that affects, deeply, the creative process. I think that complicates how we view what is African American now. I think maybe in a good way. It's needed. Yeah. I'll stop there.
11:58
Then just the part about some of the ...
12:01
Artists.
12:01
Artists, yeah.
12:02
That I'm excited by or looking at.
12:05
Or even experienced.
12:10
Or experienced, yeah. Oh, yeah. Also, did I answer the question about ... Yeah, I think I did answer it. I went into what was on stage. Yeah, I did answer that question.
12:20
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
12:23
When you say experiencing, are these artists that I feel just a connection to, or ...
12:30
Or even the larger question of, both historically and currently, artists that you feel, from Bill T to Bebe, to names that we don't know, how they intersect with this question, even though ... Like with Bebe there's a big pushing ... Like what you said, that black is part of the texture, but it's not the nature of the work.
13:01
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:03
When we did How Can You Stay in the House All Day and Not Go Anywhere with Ralph, or no, Come Home Charley Patton, there were people who were like, he's finally doing something black. I was like, that's fascinating. Then, I really appreciated being part of How Can You Stay in the House, just because that was the first time I had ever been in an all black company.
13:14
It had everything to do with being black.
13:27
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:28
The work we were doing was inherently black and also had nothing to do with being black.
13:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:39
Of course, yeah.
13:39
It's not about a thing, but part of where it was stemming from was the loss of his partner.
13:44
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
13:50
We created this movement practice, that had a lot to do ... We called it fury, but it was fury that doesn't anger. It's fury that is that passion, that is uncontrollable, yet it's contained.
14:08
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:08
He was interested in the formless.
14:11
Yeah.
14:11
How do you make the body disappear? We're also dealing with the ravages of cancer. It doesn't say, wait, hold on a second. I'm not ready.
14:23
Exactly.
14:24
You have these black bodies doing movement that was hard, that was painful to the people doing it, and yet we're trying to find joy and make our bodies disappear. It is hard, and it hurts.
14:40
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:40
We argued with him, but he was a part of that process. It was all of that.
14:46
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
14:48
But audiences watching it would get so angry, and then you had [Oakly 00:14:52] crying for 12 minutes.
14:54
Yeah.
14:55
In a deep wailing.
14:58
Yeah.
14:59
In countries, there are professional wailers.
15:02
Yeah.
15:04
I need somebody professional to get to this level of grief. She put herself there. She did the work, and she cried for 12 minutes. It was not comfortable, and people left and all of that stuff. What was interesting was people's responses to these black bodies doing what we were doing.
15:20
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
15:22
All of a sudden, the conversation was that same thing, where you're like, there's this thing that we're doing, but all of a sudden it was this violence against the black body. You'd hear some people's response. These were white people, who were having this response. The Civil Rights movement. All of this stuff came. It's not that it's not there, but that is not what this is about.
15:26
Is about, yeah.
15:57
Ralph also was like, there's no resistance to that.
16:02
Of course, yeah.
16:04
Or like Bebe does Rain. She's wearing a red dress, and it's green. She's black, and it's the colors of ... You know. I'm thinking, also, about these ways that we do the work, and you don't forget your blackness, or even just wanting to be this body on stage.
16:26
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
16:28
I actually tried to do a project. I was like, can I actually make a dance where the first thing you don't see ... It was an experiment. It was an assignment, and I was just curious if I could do this work without being ...
16:43
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Perceived as black.
16:47
Perceived as black. I knew it was impossible, but I just wanted to ... What if?
16:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
16:57
I guess, I'm thinking about different artists, how they've been in conversation with that question. You can't stop being black, but ti isn't about that. I don't know. It's that complex, what you're talking about.
17:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
17:16
I'm just wondering about your experience with either artists that you've worked with or artists that you've seen, or even personally. You talked a little bit about your personal ...
17:26
Some of my connections, yeah.
17:28
Yeah. How you also see other artists in conversation with this. I guess it's that conversation of black dance.
17:36
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well ...
17:39
That's a lot.
17:42
Yeah. Where to begin [crosstalk 00:17:44]. I know, right? Go. Yeah. I guess what I think about is this idea of, when you are in the company of blackness, or in relationship to blackness, you are less concerned being black or representing a kind of blackness, because it's a given. It's understood. There's a comfortability.
18:17
That doesn't become ... Like that thing Toni Morrison talks about, with not writing for white people. I'm writing for black people. If, heaven forbids, there are things that you don't understand, well, figure it out or ask a question, whatever you have to do. That's your work. My audience understand where this is coming from.
18:58
I think, as artists, and many of us have already, when we allow ourselves, when we are in that process of just being and not having to explain, or defend, or whatever number of other issues arise, as a product of creating performance, when you release yourself from that thing that's legible, which is something that I had to do if I was going to be able to participate in this industry ... I had to let go of any need of being legible. Even more, allowing my eligibility to be center stage, and to celebrate it as a complicated through line unto itself. This eligibility is actually what's the most exciting thing about this work. It's innately me. It's unique.
20:29
All of that comes up, for me, as I sort of grappled with finding my place, and how I understand myself in this society. Making sure that I stay in conversation with artist who are asking these questions. Even more, asking questions that I too am curious about. Essentially, all of this research just pushes the form ahead. Yeah. That's what I have to say.
21:25
Good.
21:29
Yeah.
21:30
Thank you so much.
21:30
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
21:30
Can we take a moment for room tone?
21:30
Oh, yes.
21:31
I'm going to record some room tones
21:32
Okay.
21:32
We just have to be super quiet for 30 seconds.
21:34
Let me just finish that gulp. Now we can record.
21:43
All right. Perfect, thanks.
22:12
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know, Gesel, this idea of legible, illegible, was a major point of departure for me when I was co-curating the spring festival in New York, the Movement Research Festival. We title it Legible Illegible, opening beyond the space of identities. That, as a platform, again, unto itself, to allow this opening, to say, is it even possible to enter a space without the weight of identity? Is that possible?
22:55
As a provocation, let's just put that forth and see. As viewers, as witnesses to this work, let's just attempt to see without this psychotic idea of race, having to bear it's ugly head. Can we do that?
23:26
That's a question ... I really like that. Sometimes I ask myself this question. Who would we be without our history?
23:37
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
23:39
Not an erasure, but that baggage, that thing, that huge thing, which I think is what our young people are like, do I really [crosstalk 00:23:47]
23:47
All the dysfunctional parts of our history.
23:50
Right, exactly. The things that label you. It cuts off possibility.
23:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
23:55
Just the space of the, what if?
23:57
Yeah.
23:57
Which is the question of the legibility and illegibility.
24:00
Yeah.
24:00
What if?
24:00
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:05
The other thing, when I was creating this work, is I kept seeing students continue to struggle with the same thing.
24:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:15
Next year, same thing. Next year, same thing. I did my solo, that I made a long time ago, that was called No Less Black. It was almost like, okay, let's take into consideration the fact of blackness, and now what?
24:32
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:34
Young people are coming up to me, going, thank you. I made that piece in 1999.
24:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:39
They're like, thank you.
24:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:39
I feel that way. What people expect of me. If I do that, then I'm not black enough and I'm not representing my heritage. From this one end, it's like, I'm not honoring where I came from, and then on this end, I'm trying to just be me.
24:55
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:55
When work gets created, I feel like work ends up being burdened with this idea of [crosstalk 00:25:08]. Not just blackness, but all of these ism's that we have.
25:11
Exactly.
25:12
The women are making work about being angry. The black people make work ... And it's real. These are real issues that we are all grappling with, the freedom.
25:25
Yeah.
25:25
Where that freedom comes in, to be able to make that-
25:29
Exactly. Which you have to create yourself. Nina, as we know, she says it's no fear. No fear. How do you go into a space with no fear, and create from that place? These are questions that I'm really excited about, creating my own sense of freedom, the ritual of performance, the proximity of bodies, and the ways in which we create a kind of space that is acceptable to all ways of being, all ways of life, that utopian space that we want to live in, the sacred ability of even creating a space. All of this stuff, stuff I was teaching this whole week, which I think might have gone over some of their heads. Okay, whatever.
26:32
I think, maybe, 10 years from now or whenever, they will come back to these same things. That's your core. That's the place from which you can really open and express, and offer something.
26:47
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:49
I love the amount of white bodies that are in the room, or self-perceived as such, because I'm like, yeah, you too have identity. You are not without identity. You can make work about who you are.
27:05
And you are.
27:06
Yeah.
27:06
You are doing that.
27:07
Exactly, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:10
I had them write these manifestos, because I was like, there's something you believe in, there's something you believe, there's something you find, there's something you're attracted to, there's something that you're pushing against.
27:18
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:20
That no fear, I think all of that is at the heart of this exploration of the erotic.
27:26
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:28
Where the space is, where we can create and practice, and embody this idea of the erotic, as Audre Lorde calls it, this extreme joy.
27:38
Joy, yes.
27:39
The audacity of that kind of joy in your body.
27:44
Yeah.
27:44
We have to make [crosstalk 00:27:45]
27:45
Yes.
27:46
-spaces where you're not policed.
27:47
Exactly. We get so used to that policing, I think.
27:51
You talk about that surveillance, yeah.
27:54
Exactly. It's almost as if our bodies sort of take on this ... Dare I say ... This may be on the record, may be off the record. What I love about David, specifically in the context of this entire evening, is this ability to allow the ugly to be present, which I think so many of us are afraid of. If that fears continues to rear its ugly head, then the work cannot be liberated, and it can't decolonize, because we still are obsessed with being beautiful on stage.
28:58
That was something that I do want to say about David specifically, and why I was particularly attracted to that work. He allows the ugly in, which is truthful. There's this idea of truth, that comes as a result. Yeah. Some of the other pieces, they're beautiful, but I'm like, okay.
29:27
Renny too. I fell like Renny has these strands of ugly that he's still fleshing out, particularly in that work that we saw. Me, I make work from the ugly.
29:44
I like ugly too. I do. That's one of the [crosstalk 00:29:50]
29:51
It's five after three.
29:53
Okay. Yes, uh-huh. The work from Donald McKayle, that I picked.
30:02
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:03
Again, Angelitos Negros is the ...
30:05
Yes.
30:06
I was like, there are some beautiful people. They should do that work.
30:09
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:10
Let me do this work. Let me do that.
30:11
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:20
I'm not ...
30:21
Yeah.
30:23
I had a review that actually commented on that too. She's not afraid to be ugly.
30:28
Yeah.
30:30
There's something that's so visceral.
30:34
Yes.
30:34
It's the strange reason I enjoy doing David's work.
30:38
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:39
I like being chained and [crosstalk 00:30:43]
30:43
Yeah.
30:45
There's something [crosstalk 00:30:46]
30:46
It transcends.
30:48
Well, it makes it real. I have bruises. It hurts. It makes it so that it's visceral. I think that's something, even when I'm trying to do Diane's piece, I'm interested in the visceral.
31:03
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
31:03
I'm trying to ... I'm thinking about the ritual of pulling up from the earth.
31:11
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
31:12
It's got to be real.
31:13
Exactly.
31:14
Ti's got to be real.
31:15
Exactly. Yeah.
31:18
I'm going to let you be free and go off.
31:20
All right. I'll see you tonight.
31:32
Yes. [crosstalk 00:31:33] Who thought that was a good idea?
31:37
I hope I offered something of relevance. I always get so nervous [inaudible 00:31:43].
31:42
We'll probably cut most of that.
2015 Thomas DeFrantz Interview
00:01
Wow, was, was, was, was.
00:02
All right, sound is rolling, camera is rolling. Have fun.
00:07
Yay. You know, actually I was reading with Anita, who I'm not familiar with-
00:22
Oh you don't know Anita, I'm surprised, I thought you might've run paths with her. Anita was in the original company of The [Earmish 00:00:28] Woman. She's one of the six or seven folks working with Jalawe way back in the day. Anita Gonzalez.
00:36
I wonder if I do know her.
00:37
I think you probably might. You've certainly have crossed paths. Then she after that moved more into theater, and she's been directing theater in New York for years. Then she was working at a SUNY that was close enough, I can't remember which one. She could get in and out. Kingston, whichever one's near Kingston. She was living there for a number of years, but then she took a job in Michigan two years ago. She seems very happy now.
01:00
University of?
01:01
Mm-hmm (affirmative), University of Michigan. She had been in Florida for a few years as well after her PhD, and that was not a happy circumstance. Anyway, I was really glad to work with her on that project. Really glad.
01:10
Good. I was really excited, I was like, "Oh, oh, oh," and before you came I shared some things with the students. I shared this intro because in reading the intro, I was like, "And I know you all are busy, but just read the first paragraph of," and there was something, there were a few things that stood out to me.
01:40
One is this idea of illuminating the capacity of black performance and black sensibilities to enable critical discussions of performance histories, theories, and practices. Authors here are less concerned with errors of omission in a historical genealogy of performance studies than a project of revelation, one in which the capacity of black performance is revealed as a part of its own deployment, without deference to overlapping historical trajectories or perceived differences in cultural capital from an elusive European norm.
02:19
I think about this project and feel like that's part of what is interesting to me about this, and what I also feel like I brought up again sometimes in trying to have this conversation like the conversation we had about black dance and always feeling like, "Oh, it's in opposition to white dance," which doesn't need to get talked about because it is sort of the norm, but still knowing that there is something really important about black subjectivity and black performance and what it does and why it does what it does.
03:10
I was wondering, even in reference to your own work or this project, I wanted to talk a little more about this idea of the importance of this is not about correcting an omission. This is about talking about what it is, in and of itself.
03:34
Yeah, that's great. Thanks for that. Let me try to do it through history, historiography. John Hope Franklin, who's the first really great historian of African American lives and cultures and social structures, he writes From Slavery to Freedom, I think 1946 it gets produced, and opens up the space for the possibility of the idea of a Black Studies or a black historiography.
04:04
Then we get to the '70s and the 1980s and deconstruction becomes very popular. This is when we have the characterization of race as a figment, as a construction, and we have Derrida helping us understand deconstruction of language, and the phallocentrism of language. Then we have amazing researchers like Henry Louis Grates, Jr., or Houston Baker talking about how there's ontologies of black language that are distinct but related to other kinds of structures of language.
04:39
Then in this era, in the '80s, we're learning how to unpack and deconstruct conceptions around race and blackness, and let them be much more complicated and variegated and have their own kind of qualities. I think what happened after the millennium, and this is where I feel like I'm most interested, is the qualities that black performance or black lives have that are in and of themselves, they matter.
05:09
It's like when we say Black Lives Matter, we're also saying ontologically, black lives aren't ghosts or copies or reflections of white lives in black face. That's not what it is. There's an essence and a core in terms of what's possible through performance, what's possible through language, how life experiences multiply into group experiences. There's a core there that's really important and that hasn't necessarily been historized and theorized all that successfully yet, and so we'll get to the place where that's happening.
05:44
At the same time, we're in the 21st Century so we also can imagine forward. As we're capturing pasts and ren-narrating past events in terms of their gender dysfunction maybe or the patriarchy but also in terms of the possibilities for feminine presence and empowerment or queer presence, we're also imagining forward to well what else could there be? That's where I think it gets really interesting.
06:12
The what else could there be is maybe black performance that's omni-sexual, that's transgressive and transgendered, that's concerned with a certain kind of class identity, that's also concerned with a kind of swagger that's related to popular culture, that's classical in its imagination.
06:41
Again, this kind of flowering of variety that maybe is like what happened in the Harlem Renaissance, but these possibilities maybe are in front of us again now in this moment. That's the thing about the project. The Unwrapped project I think matters in a certain kind of way.
06:55
We're allowed to bear witness to a flowering of diversity, of voices and approaches and different constellations of black performance or black lives or black humanity within these works and how they tell different kinds of stories that are related through a kind of shared experience or shared vision of a global black presence.
07:31
I also appreciate that you are also an artist, and a dancer and a scholar and all of this. I'm interested in how perhaps dance, you mentioned this I think when we were talking with the grads, the exceptionalism of dance and then at the same time, "Well of course you are in conversation," you know.
07:39
Sometimes when I'm whole, I'm about the body. I'm not about that. I'm interested in what is so important about taking the body into consideration, taking dance into consideration in a conversation like that and how scholarship is not so separate? It's a part of the theory. It is theory.
08:27
Figure out where to start. Where do I start? Okay, okay. Dance offers these really amazing challenges to the every day of many people on the planet, but dance within Africana structures on the continent and then in diaspora, so in the Caribbean, in Brazil, obviously in Latin America and in the U.S., but also in directions towards Australia or New Zealand, black dance is ubiquitous and present. It's very much a part of social identity and individual identity formation, and it's religious and spiritual practice, it's expression of sexual identity, it's intellectual capacity, it's wit, it's all of these things.
09:26
We have this tension between the ways that dance operates for black people in different settings of black culture, you know Afro-German, Afro-Nordic maybe, Afro-Scandinavian, but dance is operating in certain kinds of ways in those contexts, and then dance is operating in really different ways in other contexts on the planet, so Europeanist contexts and white western context, maybe context in China or other parts of Asia, Southeast Asia and India.
09:58
Dance is operating in different kinds of ways, but dance has capacities, black dance structures as we understand them in the United States, have these capacities to make connections between intergenerational politics and class affinities and location. We learn so much through dance. It's just always been this very important and ever present form of expression.
10:26
Dance has always had challenges, even among the black intelligentsia. If we go back to W.B. Du Bois or Booker T. Washington and then Alan Locke, so the architects of Alain Locke and Du Bois, in a certain way, architects of the Harlem Renaissance. Locke famously says, "We're going to help define the new Negro and make this flowering of African American artistry that will help the world understand the humanity of black people in the U.S."
10:52
I think that those researchers and intellectuals also knew that they were talking about black people on the planet. The U.S. has always had this special place in terms of how we've navigated race relations and making something from nothing in the context of the U.S. it's very different than what happened in the Caribbean or Latin America or on the continent. The planet has looked to African Americans for guidance and inspiration and also as cautionary tales in some ways, like what's happened in the U.S. is really particular.
11:25
Locke, when he's helping to be an architect to the Harlem Renaissance says, " Well dance is the minor form of the arts that we won't endorse. It's sweaty, it's common, we all dance, and it's outside of language, so we don't really have ways to write about it and validate its importance." You have sculpture, you have literature, you have playwriting, you have poetry, you have fiction, you have visual arts, you have music.
11:54
All of these forms of expression are central to the Harlem Renaissance, but you don't have dance. There's actually very few representations of dance from the Harlem Renaissance. In the planning of this movement, there was a sense that well dance, it's every day and it's hard to wrangle. Those two things together mean let's push it to the curb, let's just wait on that.
12:13
Then we get to the Black Power movement in the '60s and dance becomes important in the U.S. How does it do that? Through West African dance. It becomes really important when artists start learning dances from Ghana and Senegal and Mali. Then we have this thing that's called just West African Dance, that becomes really important in the U.S., and it's a way to claim Power to the People, black identities. It becomes a very nationalistic sort of way to identify through dance that's crucial and important.
12:45
This is also the moment when experimental choreography is really taking hold and starting to shoot out into the world. That's happening among African American artists, artists on the continent to a smaller degree, white European American artists. It's happening. Latino, Latina artists, this experimental choreography is coming out of the '60s and into the '70s.
13:08
Already we see there are just really divergent traditions that get us to the place where this project begins, where you have choreographers who are experimental artists, who are working in essentially queer and non-normative ways to develop dance practices that are maybe as Dianne McIntyre's practice is based in music and jazz music and improvisational structures combined with folklore and storytelling.
13:35
Or someone like David [Rusev 00:13:37] who is so committed to text and interested in how literature and text-based expression can enliven the body, even if the body is not necessarily in motion, or someone like Reggie Wilson, whose Fist & Heel group is so committed to folklore, old-timey back tales, rhythm and expression that's connected to traditions of spiritual practice, that are maybe just not every day, non-normative, yet again.
14:08
This experimental tradition in African American performance and black dance is resistant and related to the 1960s black power, black arts movement, but distinguishing itself. I think it's also related to what happened during the Harlem Renaissance where dancers had to really fight for a place at the table among the intelligentsia, who were then suspicious of dance and its capacity to operate outside of language, through the body. That hasn't changed much.
14:39
In the Academy we still have people in scholarly settings or academic settings, we still have people who work in literature who are very suspicious of the body, and how the body can do so much without necessarily resorting to words. The other thing we learned in the '80s through Derrida and other theorists, other theorists of language, Frances Manon, of course, who's very helpful here, was that language is very violent. It tries to fix things and make them stable. We know from dance and from our experience every day on the planet that it's all unstable.
15:16
There's very little that's actually stable about our lives and our existence. Dance actually gives expression and body to that instability. It's one of the things that makes it so incredibly provocative and important. Dance demonstrates instability, it demonstrates the need to be flexibly engaged in social operations. You have to be flexible to dance, and that's what we actually have to do in our daily life. We have to figure out how to be flexible, how to make choices. Dance demonstrates choice-making, and it also demonstrates limitations that can be surpassed.
15:50
You can do a turn that's amazing, and you didn't know you could do it that well or that fast or whatever it might be, but also there are things that you can't do. Suddenly your leg doesn't go where you thought you wanted it to go. Limitation, maybe exceeding limitation, but being bound my limitation, these are parts of dance, as well. Dance is an amazing container for human condition.
16:17
That was bizarre.
16:25
It's so funny because it's always like, "Yes, of course, how does nobody see," like this idea that yeah. You have to be flexibly engaged. That's, you know, the violence of language, of trying to fix things and if it's not fixed, then somehow it's not real or valid.
16:51
Even this comment on how every day gets dismissed, so social dances get dismissed and [Renee 00:17:03] Harris talks about, I know a lot of your work is centered also around social dance. He's like, well hip-hop, lindy-hop, these are the social dances of black people, that is black dance, how could it not be? Then these become markers in American culture, society, dances, and stuff like that. Yet, how it was, in a lot of ways dismissed, because oh, well we all do it, is really interesting. I'm wondering actually if something that came up in our conversations and maybe this intersects with the social dances or not, but this idea of interrupting and rupture and disrupting what performance can be, and where, maybe both how social dance and theatrical dance have been a part of that.
18:08
Sometimes we think about theatrical dance and don't think about how social dances are also interrupting spaces and how we see and think about performance. Maybe just to, and this will be another one where it's like, "Where shall I start," and then you just go on for 30 minutes. I'm thinking about interruption and rupture and disrupting what performance can be and where social dance, and also what we miss when we may see as concert dance?
18:43
Yeah, yeah, let's see, let's see, let's try there for a minute. For black audiences, if we're going to allow that to be a thing and I think why the hell not, yes, there are black audiences, hooray. Okay. For black audiences, we have a way that we understand dance to operate within our everyday lives. It's how you celebrate your little nephew's birthday, it's how your little niece is, her high school dance, that's where it's going to be.
19:19
Maybe it's praise dance as part of a church service. It might be a liturgical dance, it might be a dance at a wedding. Dance is always going to be present, and we're going to be in relationship to it, even if we're terrible dancers. The thing we say is, "Well I just can't dance." We all have a cousin or an uncle or an auntie or someone who's like, "Well I don't dance," or, "I'm not a good dancer," but the dance is present in the social identity, so it's really dug in, in terms of understanding black lives.
19:50
In the context of the United States, at least, dance is there, so we have this kind of every day dance, but then we also have an abiding interest as a people, if you will, an abiding interest in the arts. We're heavily committed and invested in the arts. We're interested in expression, we're interested in creative flexible improvisation.
20:10
We've had to make something from nothing in terms of our great-grandparents and grandparents, or however we got to the United States when we were enslaved. We had to figure out how to survive and navigate, and this kind of flexibility makes again dance and creativity really important.
20:29
We also make space for theatrical dance and we believe in it, we're invested in it. It was true back in minstrelsy times, there was a huge black audience for blackface performance, so blackface performance was patently racist. At the same time, black audiences make special space for performance. Race as performance is still performance, and you have to pick out the parts that are helpful and useful and run with those. Enjoy those. Bracket out the stuff that's entirely racist and denigrating and figure out how to not see that section.
21:03
I think we have a long history of figuring out how to do that. Seeing productions that are really interesting and amazing, but then bracketing out sections that somehow get racist. I just think there's a Broadway show this year that won the Tony Award. I enjoyed the show but towards the second act, the middle of the second act, there was this African number where they wore ooga booga masks.
21:24
I'm watching the show and I'm just thinking, "Really, you have to do that in 2015, and shame on the authors, just shame. There's no reason for it." That two minutes or four minutes could've been cut easily. It just made many of us in the audience uncomfortable for that little bit of time, and then we had to find our way back into enjoying the show, because it really had nothing to do with the show. It was dropped in. That still happens around black performance. Let's bracket that off.
21:51
Theatrical dance, we have a special place for it or we have a place for it. We're really committed to enjoying seeing a kind of focused attention on dance. There is a black audience for theatrical dance, and then there's a black public for social dance. These two mix and match and they overlap, and they are mostly the same people, but then they also can be separated.
22:13
You can have large publics of people who have never been to theatrical dance and are great dancers, maybe they're ['git 00:22:19] dancers in Detroit or they're footwork dancers in California, or they're hip-hop heads and B-boys and B-girls in Philadelphia and they've never seen a dance in a theater.
22:29
Then there are people who've seen many dances in theaters and maybe love Misty Copeland or love Alvin Ailey and love Philadanco, but have never seen or never participated in a kind of cipher, a house cipher or something like that. They're separate audiences, but they do overlap either way.
22:48
One thing about black performing arts is that they tie together individual expression and creativity to social circumstance and social possibility. The political is foundational to black expressive arts. That's something that's been very confusing for academics interested in white western structures of aesthetics. In those structures, there's this sense that the political can somehow be separated out.
23:18
Black political expression never had that sense that you could separate it out, a political from the performative, always goes together. This is why black expressive arts are always concerned with sexuality, disability, location, class, always, always, and we experience it in rap music, obviously, DJs mixing things together in unexpected ways. This sense of protest is core to black expressive arts, and you see it in social dance, but also in theatrical dance.
23:49
The theatrical dances of this project each offer interventions into whatever was understood as being a kind of normal way to perform. The political is important to each of these choreographers and their relationship to the performing artist. That relationship is politicized, I would say in each of these encounters that you have with these artists. Then we get to experience that from the audience, thinking through it, experiencing it, sitting in the audience, reading about it, watching the films about it. We get the sense of how that political is operating.
24:24
Maybe it's about gender politics, when you're working with a female-identified choreographer, or a male-identified choreographer who needs you to be a certain kind of woman in these pieces. Or maybe they need you to be a certain kind of energy that's not masculine or feminine, it's androgynous. These are interventions into the political that help the performance do more than simply stand as kind of aesthetic action, as though there could be an aesthetic without a political basis.
24:54
Black performance can't actually recognize an aesthetic that's not politicized, and political in the sense of every day interaction between people and the possibilities of that interaction being transgressive, dynamic, unusual, and charged.
25:16
I think you said the other day too, even the choice not to, you know, people are like, "I'm not political, that's not me, I don't," you know like when I started this, it's like, "Oh, I don't do a lot of dance," you know. I knew there was a thing that I was talking about. I wonder about the next generation coming, [crosstalk 00:25:43]-
25:43
I have an idea after that last question.
25:46
Go for it.
25:48
If taking that structure and everything you just spoke about and the six choreographers you're thinking of, including David [Russet, [inaudible 00:25:56], Donald McKayle, Hal Aberham and David [inaudible 00:26:07] Miller. Is there anyone you could maybe just pick one of those you could speak to [crosstalk 00:26:12] in relationship to [crosstalk 00:26:14].
26:14
Yeah, we can do that. Do you want to just, why don't you just mention them and I'll just riff on each of them, or however you want to do it.
26:18
[crosstalk 00:26:21]
26:27
Renny Harris, Philadelphia genius, amazing, but Renny's work bring B-boy and B-girling, by now it's called hip-hop, so if you don't like that, hip-hop choreographer who wants to be that kind of thing. Renny's work intervenes by bringing social dances into the concert stage. He knows that, he says this.
26:48
Like the black arts movement, it feels like black power back in the theater again. That had been, under Reagan, that had kind of disappeared. When B-boying and B-girling showed up in the '80s on national stages, a little bit, there was definitely pushback, like, "Well we don't know that, that's art and that it belongs here."
27:05
Renny was able to go, "Well yeah it belongs here, and we can use this vocabulary to tell all kinds of stories." I think about his early solos that he made for himself about life in Philadelphia, black life, black humanities, relationship to his sister, so these dances, endangered species that he was making, they were intervening by introducing every day young, black dance vocabularies into the concert arena.
27:35
The thing that's interesting for Renny is that then he had to train dancers to do this work. Dancers who didn't live in those spaces but were amazing physical artists, had to learn how to be girl, a little bit, or be boy, some, or house dance, in order to do the work. He had to train dancers, so that's a huge intervention.
27:56
He's made space for these forms to be taught at college campuses, to be appreciated in international dance festivals. His intervention is about bringing something that's really every day for the people who did it, into context where it could be recognized and valued, where it really hadn't been. It hadn't been thought of as art, and it hadn't been thought of as creative expression that was inherently urgent for telling stories about black lives.
28:28
Then on the other side of that spectrum, BB Miller.
28:35
Yeah. BB Miller, so an early post-modernist, identifies as black, she's a black woman, you know that's clear, she's never said she's not a black woman, but BB, like Ralph Lemmon, has at times had a company of all white dancers. She's lived in these spaces where race matters and doesn't matter in certain kinds of ways, and she's been exploring physical strategies of dance making. She's a consummate dance maker.
29:04
Now what's really interesting about BB Miller's work though if you look at it, and sometimes she'll say, "Oh I didn't know I was doing that," and I believe that, that's true. We do things intuitively. At the same time, she is truly committed to articulating a kind of behind the scenes, ever present, very powerful black femininity. It's in the work.
29:26
Even a piece like Rain, which one could narrate as a figure on a patch of land doing some movement to find her way through a moment in time, one could narrate it that way, she's reminded us that when she first performed the piece with her red costume and the green ground and her black skin, that there she was in red, black, and green, in the black liberation flag. That's, palette-wise, what the piece offered to its audience. There was a way that she was claiming her blackness as part of her social identity as a post-modern artist in the scheme, the creative color scheme of the work.
30:10
When I think of BB Miller's work, I think of the way that there's a sort of powerful secrecy or quietness about blackness and the way she's exploring it. Again, this is work from an artist who understands her identity that she claims and that other people put on her, she knows she's a black woman, and she makes choices in relation to that knowing.
30:33
If you see a piece that seems to have no reference to black life, it's a reminder that black life isn't always theatricalized to a place where it has to demonstrate its references, because we are black people on the planet, our lives have different kinds of emotional strains, different kinds of rhythms. We have days hopefully that are every day where the micro-aggressions aren't experienced.
30:58
Her work, I find, really reminds us of that possibility of a certain normalcy that's about relationship and intimacy, that's not always about black in big letters. I say that again, acknowledging that the work is always about black in little letters. This is work from a black woman that acknowledges her experience as a black post-modern artist. That's who she is.
31:28
Sometimes that's quiet and tiny thoughts that come into the foreground of importance. I think with BB, the black is never not there, and I think the way it can get very, very quiet, that's the intervention. That's the rupture. It's always about being a black person on the planet. I think for BB it's often about being a black woman, but that can be a very quiet, private, intimate and understated thing. That does not have to be Beyonce and Oprah. It can be just this moment.
32:04
It doesn't have to be Aunt Bee and her recipes or Uncle Sid and his stories. It doesn't have to be oddly stereotypical or folksy. It can be quiet. That's a revelation. It can be quiet. When I think of BB's work, I think about the power of this black feminine quiet that can be created in the theatrical space that she's sometimes concerned with.
32:36
I love that, black women quiet. How are we doing? [crosstalk 00:32:50]
32:50
We're fine.
32:54
Okay.
32:58
Is this helpful, I sit-
32:58
Yes, [crosstalk 00:32:59]. It's really fantastic. Well you know, and some of these things you've been saying, a lot of this is intuitive. She actually says that. It's not in this video, you won't see it, but when I asked them all to talk about their work, she's like, "I'm more of an intuitive choreographer than not."
33:22
I got to learn Rain, that's the piece that I learned-
33:25
Okay, good-
33:26
She talked about that moment, how when somebody saw the work, they were like, "Black, red, and green. That is what this is about." She's like, "Can't it be about," you know. This way of, I think that was one of the things that I was interested in. Did I always have to first be marked seen as black.
33:58
My friend, my partner at the time, who was a 6'3" black man from Texas, was like, "You will always be black. I know you want to identify first as a dancer and an artists, but you will always be black." It was like, "Okay, yeah," but I wondered about how to be in this world that doesn't, like Andrea Woods says, yes, of course, as a woman ... This is also got cut from the ...
34:28
She says, " If I want to make a work about sunflowers, well of course it has my experience of a black woman in it, but I don't have to call it black woman sunflowers," you know? You know, have the Oprah, you know. At the same time, recognizing also that, that became a push-against for me and realizing that oh, you don't actually all of these things can co-exist.
35:02
On the other side, you have BB Miller this way, and then you have Jawole, who started asking questions like, "Well why do I need to point my foot?" Her expression of black femininity and black womanhood. I think in some ways it feels like the interventions are more obvious, but I'm curious too in the other ways, in the ways that she also continues to push within her work and within the company and the kind of work she does with community.
35:40
Yeah, there's kind of like two things, there. Let's see if we can get at both of them, because one is about Jawole, but another is about black identity. I don't know, let's go to Jawole first, I guess.
35:58
Jawole Willa Jo Zollar, obviously the founding director of the Urban Bush Women, really took as a mantra thinking about black women's sociability and the possibility of black women working together to create a space that would demonstrate alternative structures of social life.
36:23
The company is mostly working for audiences that aren't exclusively black women, so you're already going to be in this funky tension with who's watching and who's doing. Jawole is incredibly, incredible gifted artist and intellectual, thinker and move, and also community organizer. She thinks of her artwork or she executes her artwork as community organizing and offering strategies for social survival, and that's so crucial.
36:51
I think that, and she'll narrate this better than anyone else could, but when I think of her work, I think of her as being committed to the possibilities of the group, which means that while she'll have things that she wants to do in a certain way, and she's the choreographer and the director, but in witnessing her work, we always feel the presence of everyone's participation. That's a model.
37:14
That's a model for social society, for social civil society that you could have essentially a leader-less community of women doing things with each other to help express a common theme, but with the variety that's in that theme. You always have this sense in the work of the possibility of the group being much more than the individuals who are in it.
37:40
An amazing thing to see in this project is solo work, because that's not been something that's been the hallmark of her company, The Urban Bush Women. Early in her career she made lots of solos for herself and is an early solo, or is there a new piece, or-
37:56
It's something she was working on in different pieces, but it's original to me.
38:00
Oh beautiful, okay. To revisit that space where there was a possibility of dancing solo, or it being the only moving body on the stage. I think with Jawole, we were invited to see one person representing a possibility of a group, still. You still had the sense of the group being present. Then there's that.
38:21
There's dance as community activism or community organizing, and there's also the technical aspects that Jawole wanted to explore. She's a modern dancer, trained in ballet, but also looking at West African forms and Caribbean dance forms, looking at these forms and allowing them to infiltrate in very much children's games, folklore, letting all of those kinds of embodied reactions to the every day, become part of what's on the stage.
38:49
Dances that explore shaking the hips, shaking the shoulders, the shimmy, the leg lift and the kick. Not interested in extremities and kind of the finish of a physical kind of perfection in some way, but interested in the impulse that produces the movement. Again, it's dance as social communication and social activism and artistry within the technique of this dance, these dances that she's making, as well.
39:19
She makes these amazing interventions. I think of her pieces that were about, that she makes that are about black women's sexuality, that are about lesbian presence in black communities, that are about spirituality, the works that she's done on beauty parlors and hair salons, that she's taking dance into other kinds of spaces to let it speak to people's lives in different kind of ways.
39:44
She modeled for us how to make theatrical dances, but then deploy them in other kinds of circumstances. In the senior citizen home, in the high school, in the junior high, in the beauty shop, so that the dance is moving and meeting people where they are, and not just waiting for the people to come to the theater to see it. I think her intervention has been to really open up the space of community involvement in this kind of art making. She's really helped us all imagine what that could be.
40:18
Then you were talking a little bit about black identity [crosstalk 00:40:21]-
40:20
Oh yeah, let's see if we can do a little on that, see if it's helpful. We all understand how identity politics are fleeting, and they're intersectional. We have different kind of identities. We have a racial identity, but also an identity through sexuality, through class, through disability, through age, through location, and through gender. These are the seven we usually work with.
40:49
Then some people add religion as an identity, religious identity, is an eighth identity to think about. Then we could add something like, so we talk about place already, but we could talk about first generation, second generation, how long have you been in the national circumstance where you find yourself now.
41:08
These identities are not fixed, they're always shifting, but we also flow through them. We have cycles where our black identity maybe is the most important thing. Then our sexual identity might be really important, too. I need to be a queer man of color. Other times I need to be a black man who's queer. It depends on the circumstance, it depends on how my energy is cycling, it depends on who we're talking to and what we're talking about.
41:38
These identities, they overlap but they also disentangle sometimes. Maybe my disability is the most important thing, and we might meet each other at the level of talking about tour disability, how we're both disabled in some way.
41:52
Black identity is vexed because it's entirely visible. The other identities we were talking about, needn't be. Even disability doesn't have to be visible. Sexuality, gender can be but we can play with gender, but class and age and location, we can disguise those in a way that race tends to hit right there. We see someone, we think we know they're black or they're not. The U.S. has the one drop or two drop or three-drop rule. Any black at all, I means black, that's all there is. You're just black, or get back. If you're black, get back.
42:29
These identities are vexed and they're complicated, and then I think that we all, as we're maturing, figuring out our kind of social place in life, have to figure out how to negotiate them and navigate them. It happens early for some people, it happens in the middle of their lives for other people, or late in their lives. How to navigate claiming black identity in a way that feels healthy, productive, and useful.
42:54
Some folks be as black-skinned as they might want to be or seem to be, but not claim black identity. We can feel the political wages of that with someone like Clarence Thomas who is visibly very black, but asks as though black humanity would be the last thing that he would want to defend as a Supreme Court Justice. That's a problem. There's a real disconnect between how race operates for him in his every day life, and then what he does as a political figure in the world. They're disconnected. That's awkward. It's also a telling behavior, because black identity is so vexed. This kind of disavowal, the U.S. disavowed black people when the Constitution's written, black people aren't even mentioned except as property. There's no black humanity in the Constitution, and that disavow continues. You have lots of young people and some older people trying to distance themselves from black identity.
43:55
What we all figure out is that black identity really matters. It's urgent, it's actually really productive and useful and when we get to black expressive forms, it's all the things we're talking about in this project. Now you can tie your aesthetic interest to your political identity. You can work on your social circumstance through your art-making, like black expressive culture is hugely powerful, so important, it's so dynamic.
44:21
Those places where black identity can really help create unexpected and urgent artwork. It's fantastic. We do cycle through our relationship to black identity as we do our sexual relationships, sexual identities, our gender identities are fluid and they shift. I think I would want to encourage us all to allow that to happen and not feel fixed in one identity forever in a certain single kind of way.
44:51
I'm always reminded of Ntozake Shange, one of her love-song poems from For Colored Girls, there's a moment when one of the women says, "Sometimes I get tired and I have to come off the floor, and you hurt me." It goes on in other directions, but those lines, they resound in my head because I feel that way about race, and we all do. Sometime I get tired and I have to come off the floor, and you, race, you hurt me, deeper than I've ever been hurt.
45:27
Identity matters, we shimmer through it. Sometimes we choose to be in it, sometimes it's put on us, sometimes we have to leave it alone, but it does something powerful and provocative. Claiming this project as a black dance project is powerful and provocative. I think it's urgent. That might not be what happens with the project, it might go in another direction, which is fine.
45:50
To me, claiming black identity means claiming black expressive possibility, and that matters. It matters in the world now. I think it'll matter in the world in 50 years. What our history tells us is that a hundred years from now it'll still matter that sometimes we claim black identity and we claim black expressive possibility because we know there's something there that matters.
46:19
You hurt me deeper than I've ever been hurt, and then I was in the bottom of your shoe when you walked back from her ... You ever know Colored Girls?
46:29
Yeah.
46:29
Oh yeah.
46:31
I didn't [crosstalk 00:46:32]-
46:31
Sometimes I get tired, I have to come off the floor.
46:35
Wow.
46:37
You hurt me. [crosstalk 00:46:41] Is that enough? I feel like that's probably enough.
46:44
Let me see if there was anything else [crosstalk 00:46:49]-
46:49
Go for it. We're here, we're here in the room, let's do it.
46:54
One of the things that was brought up during the brainstorm was some of the people that are invisible on this project. I don't know [inaudible 00:47:09]. Talk about dystopian-
47:15
I was curious as we have this conversation, and we talk about the boundary, well what is the boundaries of [inaudible 00:47:27] or whatever, certain establishment. I'm curious about, we also started talking about the future.
47:38
Yeah, let's see.
47:42
Even this idea of how heavy black dance can take up so much space because we're trying to-
47:50
That conversation-
47:50
[crosstalk 00:47:50] bridges, then we end up here, and does that give us, how are young people, younger people, trans people, people with other identities or are experiencing their identities in a different way, how are they also in conversation with this?
48:08
I guess I wonder one, if there are people, because I haven't, if there's people that you've come across already that are having some of, artists already who are having some of these conversations and in different ways, maybe not even with dance. Maybe we can touch a little bit on how we get from that [inaudible 00:48:39], how we get from that conversation about yes, black dance and keep moving on beyond that. Then who and how are some of the ways that, that is happening? Maybe do some of the ... In the way that people are just choosing to live their lives and create their art.
49:10
Yeah, that was good, I got lost, I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know.
49:14
Maybe let's start with the simple question, then-
49:17
Maybe the concept of invisibility and sort of layers of this identity, of identity [crosstalk 00:49:29]-
49:28
Maybe I can just go a little bit. Can I just give it a go?
49:31
Yeah.
49:31
One of the things that's exciting to me about this project is how you've made choices to work with a particular group of artists. Now in that choice-making, there's always going to be people who aren't chosen. Making choices means there's going to be exclusion. That's the truth of experience, or that's just how things are.
49:52
By choosing the seven or 15 or 25 artists you work with, well then there's 25 or 50 other artists who you're not working with. Then that could be considered exponentially. There are amazing artists of color all over the planet. There are amazing artists, there are amazing black artists. However we're figuring identity, there's just going to be this incredibly pool.
50:14
The project makes choices about who is included, and then explores what's inside that choice. That's a great thing. That doesn't mean there aren't other really amazing and interesting artists and there couldn't be other choices that are made in the future.
50:28
The project also models for younger artists, well here's a way to get at this. What if you curated for yourself a group of people to work with you, and developed different kinds of creative voices or expressive voices? What would that feel like?
50:44
What is it to work on a project for 15 or 18 years, to really marinate and linger inside the questions that each of these artists are asking of you as a performer, but then also your responses to those inquiries, so how you're responding to the material and reconfiguring it as our day-to-day life changes, as challenges today in Syria and migration patterns from East Africa are having such an influence on the planet, your performance is transformed.
51:18
When we might be talking about water supplies in five years or thinking about electricity in 10, we can't necessarily know what'll happen next, but we can be attendant to the variety of responses we have to the world situation, even as we're working through particular choreographies.
51:35
The project model is lingering in a question, an artistic and research question for a number of years. That's the promise of an artist's path, is to linger in these ideas, not vine them, six seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, but to linger in them and explore what happens in that lingering. Slow-cooked, if you will. That's a trendy thing right now, but the lingering, the finding, marinating, I was using food words, we had a great lunch.
52:19
The staying inside of questions to see what gets produced over time. The project really models that through particular choices of collaborators. I think it would be fantastic to get someone who doesn't even work in the concert dance world. That would be a suggestion. Jameel has all of these ideas and people he's working with, to have a drag queen.
52:45
You know there used to be a way a drag queen met somebody who didn't know anything about theater. That's not true anymore, so to have someone who really exists only in the burlesque and drag world work with you and make a piece. Somebody who's 23. You know what I mean? To really go in a different direction and see what that could produce for your questioning, but also for the project, was even more intergenerational.
53:06
Right now, it's Donald McKayle, but what about that next? What's in the next room? I'm really curious about that next room, and I would trust you. I'd be really curious to see what you'd find out in that next room. I'd love to be present for that. That's an idea.
53:24
[crosstalk 00:53:30]
53:30
Even if it's just five minute, a five-minute piece it ends up being, or whatever it's going to end up being, but whoo.
53:36
It's interesting because where I'm headed with my other work with sexuality, I'm asking, it's like I want erotic dancers in the room, burlesque dancers, strippers, so what does that mean to like yeah, no, you set a piece on me.
53:52
I just said drag queen, too. That's so old-fashioned, it's like gender illusionist, quick, write that in, take out drag queen. [crosstalk 00:53:59] Gender illusionist, gender illusionist. When I say drag queen, gender illusionist. Anyway, sorry.
54:12
The last thing that [crosstalk 00:54:15].
54:13
I think so.
54:19
Th conversation you were having about how sometimes a discussion about black dance can end up being this, take the energy out of the room. We get stuck. [crosstalk 00:54:34]-
54:34
Subjugation. Okay. Okay, so race matters. Race still operates in complicated ways. At the same time, 2015 is different from 2005, Obama's presidency is really different from Bush II or Reagan. Things do change, even as they stay the same. Sometimes we get really invested in old conversations because they're the conversations that our parents and mentors are having with us, and that's what they are telling us, so we get stuck in that, in repeating that cycle.
55:06
I think the challenge is to see if there's other questions to ask. This question about whether black dance exists, I don't know, I'm not interested in that question anymore. People dance, people are black, or claim black identity sometimes. Those things go together and something gets produced. Call it black dance, call it post-black, call it whatever you want, but let's talk about that thing that's getting produced and what it's doing in the world.
55:31
If it helps to think about genealogy and go, "Well this is like the black arts movement, this is like what happened in Harlem Renaissance," then great. That's terrific. If it's making us feel like we can't move or breathe anymore, we can't breathe, then I want to say let's find that. Let's find another way to have the conversation.
55:54
Post-black, Afro-future-queer, the new names or the new models help us reimagine the questions. Maybe that's it. It's just let's keep finding new questions. Yeah, I got a little bit lost in there, but there's something about that, like the black dance thing, it just, I think done and done. I think our students just don't care, honestly.
56:21
I think sometimes we stop caring about something because it's actually healthier. I don't think everything's about loss. Sometimes I think it's okay to move on. That's me, too. Do you know what I mean? Oh my God, I think maybe we might move on from that conversation and see what happens if we did.
56:42
We were talking about the idea, there's this thing that you do, something that was sort of exciting was this, for me, in having these conversations, sometimes you realize that you get into this thing of explaining yourself to someone else. What happens when you're in the room for black folk, and who actually [crosstalk 00:57:06] the audience?
57:07
When you have that conversation and then you know that oh okay, I'm writing this for a grant, or this is the thing that they might get excited about, or it's that old conversation because yes, your mentor is saying, "Well what about the legacy?"
57:23
At the same time it's like I know I'm not really interested in that, but how do we talk about this thing that is actually super complex and super interesting, and it is dance, and it is black people dancing, but I don't want to make that documentary, what did you say, dance better? What was it? Free to dance better.
57:47
Oh yeah, free to dance better.
57:47
What happens if you take that question out and then you sort of interface with what it is versus this, but that becomes part of that, I think happens because of the explaining and the [crosstalk 00:58:05]-
58:05
I agree-
58:07
We're doing, and then yeah, you start to-
58:10
[crosstalk 00:58:10] I think for this project too, you'll figure out how to narrate it, and that narration will change from day to day. To me, it seems that the more you feel constrained to talk about it as black artists making this ... I think that's going to bore you really quickly.
58:28
These are really amazing artists, and it's not that they happen to be black. I'm not a fan of that, either. These are really amazing artists and they've made this work that tells stories about black humanity. I'm done. I'm done that these are really amazing artists and you're, you and your collaborators, this is an amazing piece of performance. I'm done.
58:48
You know what I mean? The other stuff helps me deepen my understanding of the experience, and as I'm thinking about reflecting on it and I want to know more and I go to the website or I look at the Blue-ray disc or, and then I start to understand the genealogies and Donald McKayle dance with so and so, and so and so studied with him, and there was this resistance movement that Jawole worked in to create this space for black women. Then I start understanding all that.
59:16
I start with the experience of the performance. I start there and then it all builds out and deepens. I think the challenge is to not start there, and there already being constrained, as being about black artists of a certain generation, making solo. There I think that diminishes the project somehow.
59:37
I think the choice-making is really smart. I don't know, I just think that maybe it's that thing you're saying about intuitive. Maybe some things can be left a little bit unsaid, to be discovered about the choice-making or, is there a reason Liz isn't in it really, or was it, you know what I mean? If it really is about you wanted to work with these folks, is it about race for you? It doesn't feel that way, but maybe it is.
1:00:06
It doesn't. It feels like you were attracted to these energies because they're speaking to black humanity a certain way. If that's what Liz's project had been, you might've worked with her. You know what I mean? She might've been fine for this project, but that hasn't been her project, so you know.
1:00:22
Are there white artists or Asian artists or a Latina artist who work on black humanity? Some. Could they become part of this project? Sure, why not? Do you see what I mean? It feels to me like it's about the connection to the artist and the artistry and this creative expression around black humanity in a certain way. That's my sense of it.
1:00:44
I would say that's true.
1:00:50
That's great.
1:00:51
In terms of what you're connected with, and even, and also, and being realistic about what I think I can do about within this work, how it continues to round out. That's why it is interesting, this idea of here, here, here.
1:01:10
Nice.
1:01:15
[crosstalk 01:01:16] That thing.
1:01:19
I love that thing.
1:01:22
It's because it's like when I was like oh, I need to add Diane, oh I want to add Blondell. [crosstalk 01:01:32]
1:01:32
Did you talk to her about the project before she passed?
1:01:37
She ended up, it wasn't about this project. We ended up talking, she came and was the person who led the post-show discussion about my woman and sexuality-
1:01:49
Beautiful-
1:01:49
Work [crosstalk 01:01:51]-
1:01:50
You interfaced with her in that way, great.
1:01:52
I did. I did. I think, you know when I think about that, that's also why it's important. We're in a shifting time when we're thinking about legacies and some of these dance companies and talking about that, too. We're shifting. We always are shifting, but-
1:02:16
Dance is a living art. It exists body to body. We learn dance body to body. We can learn things off the internet or off television, but it's not the same. The intimacy of dance in relationship is what makes it, it gives it some of its special quality.
1:02:33
These dances stay as long as they can, and they do go. They go away. They change, they change so much that they're nothing like what they were. That's time. That's what time does, but paying attention to the possibility of that intimacy, this project models that too, and that's important.
1:02:53
It's really important to gather ideas, embodied ideas from these artists that you're working with and explore them so that for another bit of time, and then you can share these ideas with other people. It really, really matters. Dance is body to body, it's intimate, it's personal.
1:03:14
These are experimental artists as well, so it's even more intimate and more personal than it might be for someone making ballets on a big Alvin Ailey company. These are smaller, more hand-crafted, intimate ideas that you're expressing in the project, and that's important. Yeah.
2018 David Roussève Interview
00:00
But I mean, maybe even some of the ... what imagery you might have, but the ... I think when we were talking about the lights, we were even talking about ... Because, you know, first you don't see the body at all.
00:11
Right.
00:12
It's sort of like a dusty-
00:13
Right, yeah.
00:16
Something ...
00:16
Yeah, I mean, that's kind ... I like that image a lot. In fact, because we're revisiting the piece now, I had forgotten about that image. So, it still has potency. The idea of a dusty, dirty road that some body is dragging down. Somebody and some body, is dragging down to ... and we're not sure what lies at the end of that dusty dirt road. But yeah, that's one of the reasons ...
00:42
So, that's something that could feed the process, I'm gonna have in mind as we continue to work on the live piece. But also, that is one of the things that I find exciting about translating some of my live work to film, is that they're abstract dance pieces, but the narratives and the tone, the narratives refer to real life, and the tone is sometimes evocative of real life.
01:07
So, for me, there's a potency between that idea of abstract dance, and real life narrative that ... And also the way that my work jumps time and place. This piece, for example, whether you would literally wanna refer that in a dance for camera or not, the fact that they ... it's a slave set in the deep South, in the 1800s, and then it jumps to Elizabethan woman in an unnamed city, which was realizing is specifically San Francisco, and a particular moment in time 10 years ago. Film can facilitate that jumping back and forth in ways that visually might not feed a live piece, but becomes not only possible and sometimes can feed a dance for camera.
02:00
I think with the ... It was interesting because, in 12 Years A Slave, there's that image. I think it's [Lupedo 00:02:12], where the woman is actually around a pole?
02:15
Yeah.
02:16
And she actually I think is wearing a white dress.
02:20
Oh, that's right.
02:22
It was actually, I saw that and I was like ... there it is.
02:26
Aha. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That is ... When did that film come out? I'm trying to remember.
02:36
2012?
02:38
Oh, okay.
02:39
That's easy to remember. 12 Years A Slave, 2012.
02:41
Yeah. That is, in fact, the image that's ... We were abstracting that image to where [inaudible 00:02:49], she's not bound, and we're trying to ... Sometimes we're going for, trying to evoke the idea, or reference the image of someone being strung up, or even strung up around a pole. And sometimes we're abstracting it through the body, and it's more of an expressionistic reference, but that's the literal reference that we're going for there.
03:12
I think another image that I had ... It's interesting, I don't know if we ever talked about this, but some of it, some of the images that I'm playing with being in the role, one is when Matthew Shepherd is killed.
03:35
Yeah.
03:36
You know, and he was tied to a fence.
03:39
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
03:40
And so, dragging yourself to that body, seeing that body [crosstalk 00:03:45].
03:44
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah.
03:48
And then another one is actually ... I think I was, it was in Poland. I guess Auschwitz?
03:56
Uh huh.
03:57
Where the train tracks just go and then they just, they stop right at the concentration camp.
04:03
Yeah, yeah.
04:06
And that image where you could say pulled off in the back of that wagon.
04:11
Right, yeah.
04:13
I feel there's this moment where I have this image of someone going away. Like you're going ... It's the end of the road, being pulled. That person is over there, you can't ever get back to them. This person. The train is moving away, so there's this image of literally seeing that being pulled away. And that's not an image we ever talk about, but it's an image that sometimes resonates with me in that moment.
04:45
Yeah. There is the image of someone being, leaving ... Someone that you love being forced to leave you forever. And that you may see in the hereafter if that ... depending on what your belief system is, but that this kind of forced, in the minute separation of family and from the person that you love. And as you say that, what I'm realizing is that was such a strong image that I had in my head when we were making the piece, in maybe 2004-ish.
05:20
And it may have been a reference, and I don't even know if this exists or not, because when I saw Roots came on television, when I was a little kid, there may have been an image of, I wanna say Leslie [Uggums 00:05:33], being drug off in a wagon. It may literally be an image that I saw as a child that just stuck with me, somewhere buried deep in the subconscious. I don't even know if that image is in the film, but now I'm starting to think maybe it was a literal memory.
05:48
But also, it was from when I went to Goree Island, right off the coast of Senegal, one of the few remaining slave ports. And one of the things you see in the back of the building is the door to nowhere. And I just remembered that same ... not literal image, but metaphor and thought, and symbol of being, watching your loved ones loaded onto a ship and then sail away knowing that you would never see them again.
06:28
We've talked a little bit about why you made this piece, and maybe you can talk about that again.
06:37
Uh huh.
06:38
But then also what does it mean to be revisiting it now. Talking about its place in history, but also how it also comments on ... So, maybe where it came from, and where it's landing.
06:53
Yeah, well I can definitely talk about where the piece came from. It's really interesting, and then I watched it yesterday, and we worked yesterday in rehearsal on the piece, and I hadn't watched it in a while. I think my ... not my reaction, but what I think its meaning and purpose as it exists today is very different from what I thought it would be. And so, to talk about both of those things, when we originally made it, is a very particular moment in time.
07:26
Gay marriage was illegal, and there was a sweet spot in the state of California, which is where I live, where gay marriage was legal for a little bit. At least in San Francisco. And then there were all these people rushing to be married at the courthouse, and then the federal government suddenly shut it down. And the only good thing about that, which could've been the bad thing about that, was people knew we were headed for a Supreme Court decision.
07:58
And so, it was about a moment in time where there was some immense hope amongst LGBTQ communities, about whatever you believe in marriage. Having that be a possibility for you. And then it was shut down. And so, I wanted to make a piece that somehow ... I felt like people were having trouble making the jump in empathy, and or sympathy, to recognize what losing the ability to if you chose to.
08:43
I have a husband, but marriage is not everyone's choice. But if that's the choice that you wanted to make, I don't think people were understanding what it meant to have the government tell you that you couldn't have that choice. And then to be really honest, there was also an element of ... I thought that perhaps this series would hopefully have a really well rounded audience, but I was also hoping, giving subject matter, and the range of black choreographers, African American choreographers that you have represented, that it would get a strong African American audience.
09:25
And probably more heartbreaking for me personally, at that moment in time, than what mainstream America thought, it was knowing that at that moment ... I'm just stating my own experience, a hotbed for resistance to gay marriage was within my own African American community. That was beyond heartbreaking, and in particular, at that moment in time, in terms of my perception and personal experience, it was within the African American religious community. And so, that was particularly true in California, which is a very liberal state. And has a very liberal and progressive African American community, except rewind a few years, around issues then of gay marriage.
10:17
And so, I also thought, "Wow, I wish that the African American community ..." Because we came from a history where marriage was denied. That's what jumping the broom symbolized. You couldn't get married without the master ... when you were a slave. So, without the master knowing, we came up with our own rituals where you would literally jump a broom, and there would be a big celebration. Sometimes the master knew, and sometimes they didn't. But through thick and thin, one way or another, people were finding a way to love each other, even though they were being denied that love.
10:53
And I thought, "Well, I wish that the African American community, more so, could ..." And again, not to make a sweeping broad generalization the Africa American community is ... African Americans were homophobic, but there was a lot of resistance that I perceived at that time. And I thought if we as a community could recognize what it meant in our own personal and ancestral history, the crime and the spiritual and human devastation of not having your love for another recognized, and actually prohibited, what if it were ...
11:28
We could start off with making that statement. Having people empathize, and sympathize with a slave character, and then slide into maybe trying to transfer that empathy onto a, in this case, a lesbian couple. And so, it was very much a statement about gay marriage, and a moment in time when gay marriage was not legal. And actually had been recently denied to Californians. And so then, because gay marriage ... Now, because gay marriage is legal, I thought, "Okay, well this will be interesting as a moment in time piece, as a piece that represents a certain ... like a period that Alvin ..." I'm not equating my choreography with Alvin Ailey, but a piece of a series of choreographers that we all know and love, who were in fact at the core, the history of black dance made during the 50s and 60s, around racial discrimination, and the fight for dignity around that.
12:32
And I thought, "Okay ..."
12:33
[inaudible 00:12:34]
12:33
You want me to wait for you to ... Sip?
12:48
[inaudible 00:12:56]
12:56
Pause for a second.
12:57
Uh huh.
13:03
[inaudible 00:13:05]
13:13
So, you were equating your work to Alvin Ailey?
13:19
Well, what ... Maybe, let's see. How do I rephrase that? So, when I went ... If you think about the protest pieces that black modern dancers were creating in the 50s, 60s, 70s, around issues of race, but those ... Not that ... Actually, I guess in many ways those pieces were as relevant as ever. But I thought, "Well, this will be similar in that this is a piece that was made about gay marriage being illegal during a time that gay marriage was illegal." But you know, when I ... And it'll live within, it'll have residence as a piece about the past.
13:54
But then when I re watched the piece yesterday, it was a little heartbreaking to realize that I don't think its ever been more relevant. And unfortunately for me, again, from my own ... what I'm experiencing now in the current world, whether it's LGBTQ, race, misogyny, I'm actually more worried about violence against the other than I ever was when we created this piece.
14:20
And so, there's a line at the very end of the piece where the lesbian character says, to paraphrase, something like, "I'm just so worried about where this type of hatred can lead." She's telling a very simple story. Her lover wasn't killed, but you see a character on stage dragging a lesbian body into her arms, who is dead, and I thought the juxtaposition of this is where it could lead ... Unfortunately, I don't think that's every been more resonate than it has been ... I'll take responsibility for it, for me personally, that in 2018, American, the image actually, the warning, feelings more relevant than it did in 2004, I have to say. Because it feels more immediate.
15:07
And actually around LBGTQ people, ironically gay marriage is legal, but I think people now are retreating into their ... The boundaries that hinder empathy feel stronger than ever. And they also feel like they've expanded to race and gender, et cetera, et cetera. So, unfortunately for me, it feels like the point of view and the intention of the piece to create a conversation around the danger of where discrimination can lead to violence, can lead to death, has never been more relevant.
15:56
In the sort of, I guess ... Again, I can't exactly remember, but I do think it was 2004, because I think it was also after Bush got elected, the second time. I think that's when we were working.
16:10
And we thought things can never get any worse.
16:22
Yeah, we thought that was bad.
16:23
We did.
16:28
You were talking about how do you feel these conversation ... Now we're talking about transgender individuals, but like you said, there's violence against the other ... How do you feel like that's affected you working in the university and you see young people, and we were talking about what's going on here. How do you see how some of this legislation has impacted the youth? Or this moment in time. What do you feel like you're seeing in the art field, in your students, in young people?
17:11
Yeah, I'm very worried about young people actually, because this is what has been ... because of the moment in time that we live, and the finite number of years, and short number of years of their lives, this is primarily what they've known. And there's nothing normal about this time. In terms of political discourse or social discourse, or animosity towards the other. It's just a new low. And this'll come back to the arts because I don't think the arts have ever been more important.
17:50
In short, I agreed to serve as dean of my school at UCLA for two years, and that does put you at the epicenter of seeing what bullying can mean, and there was, who's name I would actually choose not to mention, in my view abhorrent radical right speaker, who came to campus who actually went to other campuses in particular within the UC system. And without our knowing it. As example, how I feel about the current times, this person was put in my building at that point, which is the art building, which quite frankly is probably the most left leaning spot on the entire campus, whether left or right is ...
18:37
Right, wrong, invalid, that's just the fact. And so, we found out about this on the day it was happening, and my students went haywire. So, there I was as the dean, yeah, you should be going haywire. You should, within the legal limits of what you can do, and I am one who favors non violence, I was actually happy to see that there was a very strong reaction. But one of my students in particular, as a result of this, was bullied.
19:08
And I thought about this piece at the time, actually. I had no idea, because this lead to a very long process that involved not only my office, but the dean of students, and the chancellor's office. I had no idea when someone shows you ... I support the student 100%, but I appreciate it for my own personal growth when she said, "Here are the ..." It was probably 2000 tweets. It went viral, and she documented the ... I forget how many millions of people had interacted with the bullying. It went viral.
19:43
And I had no idea what these kids were going through. And the reason I thought of this piece was make what you will of this, I guess I hadn't thought this would happen. The most violent ones referred to two things. The predominant images were lynching, and burning in an oven. And I thought, WTF? So, people who aren't that well versed in history, they do know about lynching, and burning people in the oven, and what that represented in terms of violence and hatred. And it was amazing how those two images kept repeating over, and over. I'm gonna burn her in the oven. I'm gonna lynch her. With no reference to Jews or Blacks. Just people have taken on the hatred that those two acts represent.
20:42
And it was a real eye opener. I thought, "Wow, this is what young people are up against?" And then it also made me really satisfied to be the deal of the school, and an artist at that point, because as a local foundation here in Los Angeles says ... it's their slogan, " Arts are not part of the answer, arts are the answer." That's what I came to realize, was the dialogs that we're having intellectually are so appreciated and necessary, but until we can create a more humane heartfelt conversation on the level of the heart ...
21:18
I think these kids know intellectually that referencing lynching and ovens in tweets over and over again, is not the smartest thing to do, and it's not a good thing to do. What they haven't realized on the level of the heart is what their referencing, and what they're implying to another human being. And that's where I think the arts can step in, in creating bridges to empathy, compassion, and a common held humanity.
21:47
How do you see perhaps the work of ... artists coming up now, people who are making work now, new artists and again, students ... how do you see them tackling this problem? Or how do you see a shift? Even in the last 10, 15 years, have you seen any shifts or trends in work? What are people making work about? What are they interested in making work about? How is it different, is it different at all than work we were making 10, 15 ... or you were making 10, 15-
22:23
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I could be wrong, but my ... Because California is its unique beast, and New York, for example, is its unique best, and I find it really hard to get a handle on what's happening within the field as a whole, because it's so segmented. But I think that when I was in New York, for example, and ...
22:48
New York in the 80s and the 90s felt like, very much a place where who go to tell their story was being challenged, and identity work reigned, meaning that political work reigned, and people were expressing radical ideas about race, sexuality, gender, and that had to do with the fact that modern, post modern experimental dance was so Euro centric, and then this infusion of different colors, types, shapes, sexualities, genders, gender identifications, kind of who wanted a voice at the table, really infused the work with commentary.
23:31
And then it felt like that was lost, especially with dance. We kind of, in the 2000s, and the 2010s, it felt like we went through a period of oh, just dance for Pete's sake. Enough of that commentary. And now it feels like people are returning to work that has something to say. Even the notion of dance became, for a while there, maybe out of vogue and it feels like we're returning to kind of full throttle kinetic dancing, and also we're returning to the need, the necessity if an artist chooses, to say something about the world in which we live.
24:15
So, it feels like the pendulum is swinging back. And probably a reflection of the time in which we live.
24:27
That's probably coming in from their ...
24:29
Picking it up again?
24:31
Yeah, I was wondering what that was when I walked over there.
24:35
You said it's probably coming from outside?
24:37
Yeah, occasionally there's a fair or a festival, or a ... some sort of something or other.
24:44
I don't think it's ... the loud is picking it up. I think we should be fine.
24:48
I thought it was coming from the speaker for a second.
24:54
No.
24:54
When I started this project, one of the questions that I asked everybody was what is Black dance?
25:02
Right.
25:03
Which feels like a very ... I don't feel like that's a question that gets asked so much anymore, but I do think there's something about Black artists, and Black performance, and what African American choreographers of gender ... Now you're this and that, you know?
25:27
Yeah.
25:28
But how, perhaps, they are also speaking to issues and maybe what doors that has opened for other people to then go through as a result of what choreographers have forged. It's not so huge to now ... I was talking about [Donna McHail 00:25:44], and in 19, a poem ... and Doris Humphrey's like, "Maybe you should ..." You know?
25:53
Right.
25:53
And doing the work about homelessness. You know, and I asked him, I said, "Were people doing this?" He was like, "No." And I said, "What gives you the courage or the gumption, or the ... to be like no, I really need to make this work?" Do you feel like there's something that is something that artists of color, Black artists, is there something about Black performance that is not in a way to so condense everybody down to the same thing, but in a way that's more about sort of a pluralism? Is there something that you think folks, Black folks, are doing and do ... how do they affect the field in that way?
26:54
Yeah. Hmm. I'm not sure. I mean, I do keep returning ... because I know that for a while, Black dance was defined by aesthetic. Are you from the Ailey Horton tradition, or not? And then that field's definitely like, it's being expanded without denying props and due, and artistry, and accomplishment to the Black dance choreographers who are from the Ailey Horton, because there's such beautiful work being created within that genre.
27:30
And they used to be such a strong antagonism, actually. It felt like. In the 90s, between ... if you're working within a pure Black dance aesthetic, and how that might be defined as Ailey Horton, and are you not? I mean, I feel like that antagonism is gone because people are recognizing that plurality of aesthetics, and techniques, can be welcome to the table, and I think that's a really welcome change.
28:02
I think it might've been Ralph [Lemon 00:28:04] ... now I can't remember who said, when asked way long ago. This must've been in the 80s, what is Black dance? And he said, "Well, that's any dance that a Black choreographer would choose to make." And I kinda still stand by that, and the range of what a Black choreographer would choose to make has been so widely expanded. But that having been said, I would say that in my own personal experience, a lot of African American choreographers and choreographers of color are choosing to make work that has some sort of social engagement, and even on that broad terrain, on that broad level, I think that's one of the things that unites some, if not all is that there is a strong desire to speak on the social world in which we live. And it maybe being done through a range of vocabularies, but there is that desire to comment, even if it's wide ranging. And one thing that ... I went to the IABD, International Association of Blacks in Dance concert the other day, and I will say, one of the things that ... because watching dance with an all black audience, it can be ... is the antithesis of watching it sometimes with an all white, or primarily white, modern dance audience. They're very cool and dry, and if somebody does something dazzling physically ... I'm doing this because like, 12 pirouettes. Or four. Black people are on their feet.
29:50
And what I realized was ... I mean, I can't generalize this, because I grew up in a specific time and place, Houston interested 1960s, and 70s. But from my own experience, we tend to like a lot of virtuosity. Ailey is nothing if not virtuosic. And I thought wow, I love virtuosity. I love a really wide range of virtuosity. So, Simone [Fortee 00:30:16], who is an elder in the field, and a phenomenal improviser, and works with language and movement, and it's not so much about high kicks, as it is about how immediate can she be, and present in a moment. It's virtuosic.
30:32
And so, for me virtuosity is defined ... When I stand and cheer for her, as much as anyone else, but I really related to, and loved, get your 6:00 on. And I thought, wow. That goes back to, for me, that was part of the aesthetic that I grew up in. Hearing those gospel singers in church who could belt it out. I go to a Broadway show, and I'm like, "You gotta belt it out." See, in the Ailey company, at music center here, maybe three years ago, I couldn't believe how they had redefined virtuosity. And I think that's part of, for me, a Black aesthetic.
31:10
And I realized in seeing IABD, and seeing Ailey, I thought, "Oh, that's what I've been doing all along." How to fit virtuosity within, for me, a frame that allows for comment, and for boundary pushing. Because I would consider my work to be fairly experimental. I'm giving you some long answers.
31:32
That's good. Because you know I'm a just ...
31:33
Yeah.
31:33
I'd be very disappointed if we [crosstalk 00:31:39].
31:33
All right. A reset?
31:33
Yeah, reset.
31:41
Okay, sorry.
31:42
Do you want a chair?
31:46
Do you feel ... Like you said, you've been making that all along. Are there any significant shifts that you can track in your own work? Like what you move more towards, or away from? Or found more intriguing?
32:03
Yeah. That's funny. I was thinking about my own work, and the different phases of my work. And I would say that I'll try to be concise, but I would say early on, I was doing really ... at the very beginning of my career, I was doing really in your face edge of prop work. Really shake 'em up, spit 'em out, wake up. And then I was also in the 80s, a member of a group called ActUp, Age Coalition to Unleash Power. We took over Grand Central one day, and it was really empowering, but the commuters, as I would've been, were really pissed off about ... they couldn't catch their trains home, which unfortunately was what we were doing. Stopping the whole Metro system.
32:58
And it was to draw attention to the AIDS pandemic. I mention that because I saw an almost fist fight break out between this suburban white commuter and this young, queer white radical person in ActUp. And I thought, "Wow, if the commuter ..." What's missing is the empathy. You can hold up a pole with the millions who are infected and dying, a sign saying that, but until you get people to realize on the level of the heart, what's happening, you'll never have any effect.
33:32
And I mention that because at that moment, which set the course for the next couple decades for my career, I realize that's my purpose. I need to switch from shouting in people's faces, to shouting in people's faces but getting them to realize our shared humanity, and getting them to illicit a little bit of empathy in the moment, which is the basis for what our piece together. Jumping the broom. So, that has been a very long shift, that my work has not shied away from. Not comparing myself to Tony Morrison, but she's the person I idolized.
34:08
There's always just grit and violence, and she does not shy away from the nitty gritty life of whether it's slavery or contemporary life as a person of color in America. But you also recognize this more spiritual dimension that she also writes. And that's been kind of my motto. I'm working on a new piece, and what I'm realizing is it's interesting to me, because literally it's about Billy Strayhorn, who was Duke Ellington's right hand, main collaborator for most of his body of work.
34:46
And to make a long story short, I recognize wow, this is the first piece that's filled with dance, this is more dance than any piece I've ever made. It's a very bittersweet piece. Billy Strayhorn was never given his due, legally or in terms of public praise. But it's the first piece I ever made where there's no murder, rape, death, there are no white people in the piece, and yet it feels very political to me. And what I realized was it feels like it's a throwback actually to when I grew up in the civil rights movement. There's so much joy in this piece.
35:28
And again, it's a bittersweet piece. It deals a lot with the 60s civil rights movement. But part of the piece I came to realize is there's also a lately a shift for me that being adamant about joy when actually what I realized was that's the first thing we had to do in the 1960s was to dance around my Grandma's room to Motown. That's a way of asserting your humanity. And so, in the face of a piece that seems less political, it actually feels more. I'm saying a bunch of people of color and non color, throwing down the roof and celebrating joy before taking on these harder issues has never felt more important.
36:12
So, that's the politics of the work, and the subversiveness of the work has shifted to a different statement.
36:18
I actually think that's happening a lot. I'm seeing more about-
36:23
I am too, yeah.
36:25
And resilience, and knowing that in and of itself is also a political act in the sense of we don't have to just focus on yes, we continue to do the work, but there's also a joy and celebration is a part of it as well.
36:44
Yeah. Exactly. And that feels like a field wide movement.
36:51
So, how has it been being in academia? Shifting from ... How long have you been here now?
36:59
I came here in 1996 from New York, and then I kept my company in New York until 2006. So, I was literally ... I know, because I took a lot of leaves, and I'm paying for it now with my pension, but I know that I was literally on the clock half time, to the first 10 years, and since 2006 I've been here full time. And I would say that I will always have a love hate relationship with academia always. And I recognize what it can do and what it can not do. It'll always be love hate.
37:32
That's ironic to say, because I was a dean in academia, and I think that probably everything about why I did the dean thing, and how it ended up says everything about how I feel about academia in that I did it more ... It just seemed like I had just finished doing a major piece. Academia now has all of these working artists. You have to put working in there. We've always got a lot of artists, not that many working artists. Major in dance. In fact, most of the major artists I know are in academia, and I have no shade about being academia or staying within the field, or both.
38:15
But there's no one at the really higher levels, representing the needs and demands of working artists. And so, within my own department, we have all the choreographers are continuing to work. The art department here is unheard of. In the history of art, I would go so far as to say, in terms of the names that are represented from Barbara [Krueger 00:38:40], to Kathy [Opie 00:38:41], on down the line. I mean, it's astonishing. But there's never been someone representing these people at the chancellors level.
38:47
So, that's mostly why I did it. And it went incredibly well. Just incredibly well, and the chancellor and the provost were incredibly generous, and supportive, and everyone thought is there anything we can do to get you to stay? And I mention all this because I'd be ... if this were art making, I'd be too embarrassed to say, "It went so well", because it's not where I have any identity, or sense of accomplishment. And because it was about not myself. It was about the feel that I mentioned it went well. Because what I was able to say is, "Thank you, thank you, thank you", it's actually really tempting to apply. I'd have to join the pool and apply. As a public school you can't just take a position.
39:34
But I was able to say, "No, that's not where I am in my life", because I can't be a working artist and a dean. That's what I've come to realize, and secondly, more importantly, the whole point and the way that I'm so happy that you're saying it went well, I want you to know the reason it went well, and everything you've cited around what I've brought to the table, is because I'm an artist. Oh my God, David, you have such vision. Oh my gosh, you work so well with budgets. Oh my gosh, you know how to ...
40:06
There were courses on how to collaborate. I'm thinking, excuse me? I've never made a piece, and then I had to figure out how to collaborate. If I'm not staying with the budget as an artist, it's coming out of my pocket, so you learn how to stay within a budget. And you learn how to have vision and go, "Where am I gonna get ..." I mean, my latest piece is like in the low six figures, but what? When the biggest grant is National Dash Project at like $40 000?
40:35
So, you constantly think big and figure out how to pay for it. And no artist in their right mind would start off ... we're all based in vision. That's the start of things. Until I was able to say, "Here's what's missing in academia", it's the things that artists are bringing. So, thank you for acknowledging that that's what I'm bringing. It's not where it belongs in my life, but you're acknowledging what academia could perhaps respect an artist more. I don't have any short answers. Sorry.
41:06
Well, I also think ... Would you say that's also true ... I'd like to say that I think artists are gonna be the ones to sort of save the world. Like, you know, we talk about art is more. But I see artists as activists, and artists as being able to bring all of those things to our communities, that sometimes people don't necessarily look to the artist. They think of this thing that happens on stage, but there's also these ways that we're in our communities.
41:37
Yeah. And I can tell you there's intellectual, then the artistic. I can't tell you the number of times ... I can't believe ... Well, I can't believe you didn't backfire even more. The number of times I would send out emails to everyone in the school, and have to qualify it by saying, "I'm speaking to you as dean", because you can't take a political stand. "And now, as an artist and a private citizen, I'm gonna tell you what I think about Hillary Clinton's loss." Or, "I'm gonna tell you what I feel about this gentleman whose name I won't use, coming into our territory." But I always had to represent university with a ...
42:16
Understandably. That's what you agree for when you sign up. And what I will say though that I noticed, that was missing, is ... So, the same way that representing a dean and being Black and queer, and with no graduate degree ... I don't have an MFA. Or a Ph ... People would go, "Dr. Rousseve." I'm like, you so off the money. Not only is it not Dr. Rousseve, it's not even MFA Rousseve. It's BA Rousseve.
42:46
So, in the same way, just being in the role was subversive, you can project that to just being an artist in this day and aga is a subversive act. Looking at when it's very clear that our current president's trying to get rid of the national endowment, and that the cultural forces are leading us into ways of thinking, being and doing that aren't necessarily the ones that aren't making ... There are forces that are limiting empathy right at a point when art making is trying to expand it. And not to sound like a Macintosh Apple commercial, but think different is what artists are doing. And I think, think different is not what the mainstream culture is rewarding in this day and age.
43:31
And so, even artists who say, "I don't make political work", living your life as an artist and insisting on a different ... on the path less, the road less traveled, is downright subversive. So, I think the act of being an artist is subversive, and for me, often the content of the work is also subversive.
43:57
Last question. What do you like to do on a day off? Do you have any of those? Is there ...
44:07
On a day off, well lately ... because this is just the reality of not being ... because I've grown into an anxious, paranoid, African American queen, I have had to ... Insomniac. I have had to amp up my meditation practice. So, on time off I try to sit quietly, and stop watching Rachel Maddow, and CNN. It has become ... My leisure time used to be filled with that, and now it's like, I'll go light some incense and sit alone. That's become a necessity. And on top of that, I would say I like to go to movies. Most of them performance, because performance I have to think a bit too much.
45:04
And so, sometimes ... And I watch the trashiest of TV. I should mention that I watch Housewives on Bravo, because it is humiliating. I admit it. I admit it. But that's about the level that I can absorb, and then I watch movies, from art film to low rent, and so for example, I cannot stop talking about Black Panther, which I think was the cultural moment that they said it was. But also a major milestone in filmmaking in general. The intersection between subtlety, in your face, art making, ambiguity, with big budget films in general, but also for African American film.
45:55
My world has been rocked. So, yeah. Mostly I go sit in films. That's probably how I spend ... I have to say as much as I go to art films. I have to say sometimes. Mostly it's commercial filmmaking.
46:15
Cool. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet.
46:17
[inaudible 00:46:18]
46:29
To rehearsal.
46:29
You need to warm up, right?
2018 Donald McKayle Interview
00:01
Oh really?
00:09
Then Doris Humphrey was there in Martha Hill.
00:15
Were you a student?
00:16
I was in a company Sophie Maslow Dance Company.
00:23
[crosstalk 00:00:23]
00:23
Yeah. Sophie Maslow, Jane Dudley, and William Bales had a company called the New Dance Group Company. I was a member.
00:38
This was an opportunity. How did that happen that you had this opportunity to [crosstalk 00:00:43]?
00:42
Well on a certain day of the week all the members of the company could present things. This was one day of the week. Here they are.
00:50
We came to see you Donald. [inaudible 00:00:58]
01:02
Here I am Donald McKayle, speaking words of wisdom.
01:03
All the company members-
01:10
Were given a chance to present their work and this is one that I had worked on, so I presented it.
01:22
Was it unusual to do a dance to a poem?
01:25
Yes, it was very unusual and I remember when Martha Hill came talking to me about y direction. She wanted me to do more things that wasn't being done. Doris Humphrey came with a lot of records for me. They were records like The Impressionist.
02:02
Was it also unusual to do work that was about homelessness?
02:09
Of course. They had to do work about people who are in stature. I broke a lot of rules. I keep on breaking them.
02:25
Yes. What gave you the inspiration to break rules like that? You were, what, 18? [crosstalk 00:02:36]
02:36
Yes. I had a book of poetry of black artists and I liked this one, so I chose it.
02:51
Did you also know Countee Cullen?
02:54
I met him, yes.
02:54
You met him.
02:56
He was teaching at a high school, PS 136, I think. Public school 136. He was not that far from me. Next door to me was his aunt, Aunt Ida. He would come over to stay with her and have dinner with her, and she introduced me to him. That's how the connection came.
03:31
I read poetry, but it doesn't necessarily give me ... you all know you'll be in comp class or something like that and they'll be like, "Okay, am I going to get ..." ... in Dallas I went [crosstalk 00:03:54].
03:53
No, I studied in New York first.
03:55
Well, yeah I mean the first time. This I would have learned it a lot later. Was that your company at that point?
04:02
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
04:05
Sudden Games.
04:06
Yes. I remember very well because it was my first company. I remember them.
04:22
Was that piece inspired by the [crosstalk 00:04:26]?
04:26
What I remember as a child all of that is my personal memories.
04:31
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
04:34
(singing) I sang the songs with one of the girls that was in the company, Shaniqua Baker. Later when I revived it I sang it with my daughter. She was an adult by then.
05:01
That piece has been reset quite a few times.
05:07
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I did it here once.
05:11
Oh yeah?
05:12
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
05:13
Yeah. I don't remember who I saw it on, what company I saw perform it? Saturday's Child hasn't been reset.
05:26
Not for quite a long time. I set it on Janet Alba who you see on the video. She now is the director of the Martha Graham Company.
05:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then I think I learned it from you in, I'm not going to get this date right, maybe 2006.
05:57
I don't remember.
05:59
I don't either. I stalked him. He didn't know that.
06:03
You were always there asking me.
06:04
Yes.
06:07
I guess I would call it stalking.
06:09
Yeah. I call it soft stalking, like trying to do it without being annoying. I hope I wasn't annoying. I went to the American Dance Festival.
06:20
I did it there.
06:22
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think I started learning it there.
06:28
I remember we were talking about what they had seen and Eliot Feld said, "And he [inaudible 00:06:29] and so on." He was a nice kid.
06:29
Eliot Feld. Is there anyone else doing Saturday's Child?
06:47
No. Just you.
06:55
In case.
06:57
Wipe my nose.
06:58
In case.
06:59
Thank you.
07:00
All right, well maybe I should go do it.
07:08
You want to start?
07:08
Yeah.
07:10
She didn't come down here.
07:11
[crosstalk 00:07:13]
07:13
I may ... yeah, y'all [crosstalk 00:07:15].
07:19
Hey Mia. ... because there's steam coming out of them. Then it's in front of a business and the people are saying, "Get away. Go on." They're chasing away, so that's the setting that she starts from.
07:31
So, I'm going to hit that, so some of that might have to move a little bit. Just those [crosstalk 00:07:45]
07:31
[inaudible 00:07:45] Back.
07:31
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
07:31
[inaudible 00:07:54]
07:31
This is only whistle and rags.
09:47
Some are teethed on a silver spoon, with the stars strung for a rattle. I cut my teeth as the black raccoon for implements of battle. Some are swaddled in silk and down, and heralded by a star. They swathed my limbs in a sackcloth gown on a night that was black as tar. For some, godfather and God-dame the opulent fairies be. Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me. For I was born on a Saturday. " Bad time for planting a seed," was all my father had to say and, "One mouth more to feed." Death cut the string which gave me life and handed me to Sorrow. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.
15:07
Very good. You really studied that tape very well.
15:15
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
15:18
I'm very impressed.
15:20
Oh, thank you, sir.
15:20
Isn't she terrific?
15:20
Terrific.
15:20
Yeah.
15:20
Thank you, sir.
15:32
I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I'm impressed.
15:34
Oh, thank you!
15:37
It's so different from what you showed me and I kept saying, "How did she get there from what I taught her?"
15:46
Do you have a microphone on in the show?
15:51
No, but we'll have mics on the front-
15:55
On the floor.
15:55
... of the stage to pick it up. It's going to be an intimate space. It's the Billy Holiday theater in Brooklyn. They've just redone it.
16:05
Really.
16:05
It used to be the restoration ... they call it restoration art, 651 Arts is presenting it. It's tiny, so you will have that feeling of intimacy. It's only 199 seats. Beautiful redone. It's tiny, but I think it actually works for this piece, that feeling of being right there. I'm pleased about that. Yeah, I tried to find, again, some of the accents and the clarity I was seeing, and also the stuff that you told me to be reminded of what we talked about when we were initially together the first time. [crosstalk 00:17:01]
17:01
I kept remember that. I said, "What is she doing?" When I started I just taught you. I kept saying, "Where are you going? What's happening?"
17:08
I'm glad it's better.
17:16
It's just terrific.
17:18
Thank you. One of my questions was there was this feeling of heartbeat and I wanted to know, I think initially when I had picked it up, or one of the differences is, "Pain, godfathered me." Then there's a ... There is a heartbeat, yeah?
17:54
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
17:59
Should I keep hearing it?
18:05
You can spread your legs wide, wide, wide.
18:07
Wide, okay.
18:16
There you go. Yes.
18:16
You want to hear sound there. Okay, that was one of my questions. I think also I had a memory of my arm actually being out, but hers stayed connected. I don't know if you have a thought about this arm from the very beginning. Do you have a feeling about whether you want it out or in?
18:58
Well, you're asking people that are passing by for money and they pay no attention to you. You have to bring it forward every time you see someone.
19:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you have a feeling is this person who also has another type of affliction like polio or is it just being on the street for a long time?
19:30
On the street. A street person. She has all the afflictions of what it is to live on the street.
19:39
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
19:40
I was just remembering this because I went to the emergency room and there was three people there. The police came and took them away because they weren't sick. They were just there to keep out of the cold. They had stories about being sick. They were very bright.
20:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative) to get out the cold.
20:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
20:15
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
20:15
There was a man and woman, I don't know whether they were up here, I think they were. He was ... His tummy, sometimes, would see his backside. Very strange experience being there. When I remembered this dance and how I got in to do it ... I was a very strange young boy.
20:55
Strange to other people? Sometimes I know I consider myself strange, but I'm around a bunch of strange people. That's my community is all the strange people. Were you strange growing up or was it you were just an artist?
21:13
I was an artist. Things appealed to me that didn't appeal to other people. I remember Doris Humphrey and Martha Hill both coming to me and saying I should do other kinds of dances. Doris Humphrey gave me a group of records, which they were impressionist music. They were nice, really very nice. That was what I was doing at the time.
21:57
Let' see, who else was ... there's Doris Humphrey, there's Martha Grant. Who else was making work?
22:08
Martha Hill.
22:09
Martha Hill.
22:10
Yeah, she was the director of Juilliard Dance program.
22:21
There was Anna Sokolow.
22:28
Yes.
22:28
And Josée Lamothe [inaudible 00:22:28].
22:28
Teaching at Julliard. Did you go to school at Julliard?
22:36
I took some classes. I came and just took classes.
22:41
[crosstalk 00:22:43]
22:45
They liked me. They liked me so they're like, "Come on in."
22:52
Smart. Smart.
22:53
I was a good mover. I could dance.
23:00
He was, well in 63 when I was there, Martha Hill came in and said, "Class, I'm introducing you to your teacher this week is Donald McKayle." One girl went. She said, "Yes?" She said, "Who's Donald McKayle?" She said, "You'll find out." He walks in the room. "Oh my God. How am I going to get my legs to look like that" Then off we went shaking by the end of the class. Yeah, we had a good week, several weeks, Donald. We were changed people.
23:47
I bet.
23:48
At 17 years old.
23:49
I bet.
23:49
Changed.
23:53
Yeah. Then kept teaching there?
23:55
Not very often. I wasn't very much older than you were at that time.
24:02
U were just a bit. Not too much. You were a young one.
24:07
I was-
24:07
It was amazing. "You will find out," is what she said.
24:15
Well, most of them found me all out all the way.
24:21
Yeah, I'm sure y'all know. Yeah.
24:27
I could dance then so it's different than being in a chair. I could do all those things.
24:36
That you were making all those people.
24:38
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
24:48
This is the 50s and the 60s. We're in the midst of the Civil Rights movement.
24:54
Right.
24:55
It's kicking. It also seems to be a big deal to have, and again in the arts I feel like we find these ways of we're more interested in people being people. That was a big deal that it was an integrated company or that was an integrated space for people to be-
25:18
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I remember the dancers that were in my first company very well. Some of them are dead now. I kept on living. Like Louanna Gardner, she was just lovely. She was also a lingerie model.
25:38
That's a good side hustle. Yeah.
25:46
She was lovely. And Eliot Feld who now has his own company, he was there.
25:55
He was one of your company members?
25:57
Mm-hmm (affirmative). George Lika, he's not a dancer anymore. You wouldn't know him. They're all old like me. I'll be 88 in July
26:12
In July.
26:13
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:14
July what?
26:14
6th.
26:15
July 6th.
26:16
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:18
My mom's birthday is July 4th.
26:20
Oh, right on Independence Day.
26:22
Yup. She always thought the fireworks were for her. She was like, "It's my day. I get fireworks on my birthday." You were just in, I got to see you briefly, at the International Association of Blacks and Dance.
26:44
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:47
Is it DCDC [crosstalk 00:26:48]?
26:48
Yes.
26:49
... label?
26:49
[crosstalk 00:26:50]
26:50
Yeah, they did it. They continuing dance company. They didn't [inaudible 00:26:55]. I was so happy.
26:58
Oh, good. Good.
27:00
When you see one of your favorite and important dances in your career being done again by fabulous dancers ... they were great.
27:13
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's one of my favorites. Y'all have seen that one right?
27:21
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
27:21
Okay, yeah. That one is really-
27:24
(singing) It always comes in the middle of the break.
27:30
I did that. Are there any thoughts about delivery of text or any [crosstalk 00:27:49].
27:49
You have a wonderfully strong voice.
27:51
Thank you.
27:52
Yeah.
27:54
My question is when you start, what position will the audience see you in? Rear, front or your body sideways?
28:02
I thought one of the ideas is that you wanted to see my feet, the soles of my feet. I'm trying to start this way so my feet are facing, but if you want me to be, I can be anywhere.
28:17
That's be great.
28:17
This works?
28:17
Yeah.
28:18
Okay. Then when I scoot I can scoot on the diagonal. I also brought my costume.
28:26
You're upstage. You're upstage, right?
28:26
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
28:27
It's a stage?
28:27
Yeah.
28:29
The only thing we saw was from this angle, anyway, was your backside. Maybe a little angled so that.
28:34
A little, okay.
28:36
Because it's in the corner, so we see your body tool.
28:40
I also brought the costume so you could take a look at it. It's got so many layers that it almost looks like a bunch of material and then my feet.
28:49
Yeah, a bundle. Mm-hmm (affirmative), sure.
28:50
That's the thing that emerges from there. That's a ...
28:54
Here Donny does the arm go straight up or straight out? That should be straight out from the chin.
29:01
Yes.
29:02
Not up.
29:02
I did this.
29:03
Don't go up.
29:04
No, she's asking for food or money.
29:07
Straight out, straight out. Don't go up.
29:09
People just pass her by.
29:10
[crosstalk 00:29:10]
29:11
Okay. One more mouth to feed. I'll probably [inaudible 00:29:19] here. Then I can come down so it won't cover the face, yeah.
29:27
Then you open your legs like a [inaudible 00:29:28] with your hands on the floor. Keep it on [fos 00:29:31].
29:32
Straight front?
29:33
Yeah. Is there two of them you do or one?
29:35
On this?
29:39
That one.
29:40
Yeah.
29:40
Straight up.
29:41
That's right.
29:45
Don't be at an angle.
30:00
[inaudible 00:29:58] Cool. Thank you. Any other things that you [crosstalk 00:30:03].
30:03
He knows what I think all the time.
30:05
Yeah, or any other questions, or I mean anybody has so we can take a look at things?
30:12
At the end when you're saying about, "Only kind of middle wife," where are you?
30:29
Probably around here. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.
30:51
Fine.
30:51
Then I'm going to head off this way. Does that seem right?
30:57
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
30:57
[crosstalk 00:30:59]
31:03
There's another one you do when you fall on that position too [crosstalk 00:31:06].
31:06
Yeah, that's at the beginning.
31:08
Go fall when your leg is crossed over and you fall.
31:11
That's implements of battle.
31:11
When your leg is crossed.
31:11
Is it this one?
31:12
Yes, and then you fall [crosstalk 00:31:27].
31:27
Oh, it's this one. It's probably this one. Is it this one.
31:32
Keep the leg up high and cross it.
31:36
That one.
31:37
Yeah.
31:38
Yeah, cross it over and go ahead. Really fall to the right.
31:41
Oh, I think it might not be that one. What else could it be? That one I have to go ...
31:48
Straight down, or is it a fall?
31:52
This one goes straight down because I have to grab that. I have to do that.
32:20
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
32:20
Then I have that. Then I have this. Then I have that and this.
32:21
The next one. All the way. Yeah.
32:25
That's the one at the end. Is that the one you're thinking about?
32:27
Yeah, that's big step.
32:28
Beg or borrow. [crosstalk 00:32:29]
32:28
The last thing that I recall is the Medusa fingers. Do you want them on top of the head Donald or to the side of the head? Somehow I recall it being over the head like a crown. Is that right.
32:52
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Like that yeah.
32:52
Mm-hmm (affirmative), okay.
32:55
Like that, yeah.
32:56
Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
32:56
There's [inaudible 00:33:02].
32:56
Like [inaudible 00:33:05].
33:05
Like stars. For some, godfather and God-dame. Oh, I think it's this one. Maybe. The opulent fairies be. That? It's that one.
33:35
Yeah, and that leg straight all the way. Way, way. No, no you're fine. Just keep it stretched and as far away as you can so it's big. Yeah.
33:45
I think it actually keeps moving I [crosstalk 00:33:47].
33:47
Keep your leg far from you. Deep. There you go.
33:53
Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me.
34:22
When [inaudible 00:34:22] is the head down or up?
34:24
I think it's probably down.
34:25
It's down.
34:26
Am I putting it up?
34:28
Don't bring your face up because [inaudible 00:34:31] boom, boom. Open and then drop. Right.
34:32
Okay.
34:52
Are there one, two, three, four of them or just two on the wall?
35:04
There should be ... Did I cut some out?
35:06
Yeah, it seemed like you only did two or three.
35:13
Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain ... mm-hmm (affirmative).
35:25
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is your foot with the toes ... point your foot as hard as you can and then flex the toes. That one over there too in the beginning, the same way. Full stretch in the arch.
35:40
Oh, this one.
35:40
Yeah, really show that. Flex your toes. Is it different between an unpointed foot and a pointed foot?
35:49
Yeah.
35:49
Or a flexed toe.
35:50
I can get that big toe going.
35:51
It's hard.
35:57
That probably [crosstalk 00:35:58].
35:57
That's amazing. How do you do that?
35:57
I can't do the whole toe. I can do one toe. See, I got baby toes. Should I try to do one toe?
36:18
No, all of them.
36:20
Yeah, spread them. Spread them.
36:26
There. Practice my toe [inaudible 00:36:27].
36:29
Hold it from under. Stretch the whole leg. Stretch the knee. Yeah, there you go. Stretch the knee. Yeah. There you go.
36:44
I know I'm working hard [inaudible 00:36:45]. What time is it?
36:44
It's 3:05.
36:51
You have another hour.
36:58
Teach it to everybody.
37:02
Is there anything else [crosstalk 00:37:04].
37:03
[crosstalk 00:37:03]
37:09
42
37:14
Weren't they all so clean.
37:15
I know, I got to dirty them up. Well, you know laundry, so I'll dirty them up. Where's my scarf? What happens is in between each solo there's some video footage, which gives me a little break in between the pieces. I have the footage we made in 2000 and let's just say 06. I have some old footage and then I'll include some new footage talking about the piece a little bit. Then you'll some of that before you see the piece. Maybe little snippets of rehearsal, you know, like dancing with the stars. You see them in rehearsal and then you see them live on stage. I'll be getting into these clothes.
38:28
I think this piece will be third. There's seven solos in the evening. I'm doing four in the first half. I think it will be Bebe Miller, Kyle Abraham, Saturday's Child and then Rain Forest. That's the first half. Then the second half is Jawole from Urban Bush Women. Jawole Zollar, David Rusev and then it's a piece that I made called No Less Black. That has a poem that goes with it. There's three in the second. Is that right? Did I just count-
39:17
You didn't put a finger up for your own piece.
39:21
Okay. Yeah, no that's right though. There's seven. I was like, "That's eight." No, it's seven. Yeah, usually I do it, but this time I'm actually teaching it. This idea of legacy it's like I'm getting this work from you. You're passing this work onto people. I'm actually going to set the last solo that I actually originally did in 2000 on a dancer who used to work with me 15 years ago. She was recently named one of the top 25 in Dance Magazine. She's having her own career and she danced with David Dorfman and did some work with Urban Bush Women and Liz Lerman. Now she has her own career so I'm going to set that on her. I'm going to read the poem, which I've never gotten to read. She'll do the work and that's the last piece in the show. In between each of these is, like I said, some footage. Different timing, so you don't get bored of, "Oh, here's the video moment." Sometimes I just do a piece without and then you'll see the video afterwards. Backstage changing is pretty fun. It's like, "Get this on her head, quick! Put that on."
40:37
Do you have anything on your head by the way, for this?
40:38
Yeah.
40:38
Just the scarf?
40:39
Just the scarf, but I tie it like ... she did something like ... You usually let it out so there's something going on kind of like that. Then I [inaudible 00:41:16]. Y'all know it's change [inaudible 00:41:20].
41:19
[inaudible 00:41:22]
41:24
This is also, like I said, if you want to change in costume. Someone said, and I actually thought this was kind of cool, is that you didn't know whether or not I was male or female. You know, because you've seen me already, but it wasn't like, "Oh, it's a homeless woman or a homeless man." It was just this being or person, which I thought was interesting. I can definitely dirty this up.
41:57
Your hair is spectacular.
41:59
Thanks.
42:01
Even without the bandana.
42:02
Oh, thanks. I'm trying to figure out, I was just laughing with Micheal. This is the filmmaker Michael Taylor and Finn over here his assistant. I was laughing because you know how you don't dye your hair for a minute, so it's two tones. It's black and gray and then whatever this color was a year ago. I'm taking off my underwear, sorry. Not my underwear, my pants. We all do this. It's okay. We know how it looks.
43:02
[inaudible 00:43:03]
43:10
By the way you [inaudible 00:43:10]. Don't look back at her when you take off your clothes. It looks like [crosstalk 00:43:10].
43:10
Did you say my name? Okay, nevermind.
43:10
Okay, all right.
43:10
By yourself, you know?
43:12
A few notes.
43:13
[inaudible 00:43:15]
43:20
You engage with her while you're taking off your clothing. What's he going to do?
43:21
Oh my.
43:33
Oh my. Did I do this right? I think that's right. I think that's right. Is that right? That didn't seem right.
43:36
It looks too much.
43:47
Yeah. Did I put it around my waist?
43:48
Did you wear pants in this?
43:52
Well, she has on leggings and skirt-ish thing on over it.
43:58
So we see the leggings.
43:59
That's a question. I got to look to see what I ... Thoughts? I don't think that's right. That's weird. Right? All of a sudden I'm a pregnant homeless person. What was this? Was it underneath? I'm going to look at my video really quick.
44:39
That looks [crosstalk 00:44:39].
44:40
Mr. McKayle how many times did you perform this solo?
44:44
I don't remember. It was long ago. 48.
44:52
Wow.
44:52
[inaudible 00:44:53]
44:54
It was long ago.
44:54
Yeah.
44:54
Maybe that was my of having a skirt without having a skirt.
45:00
I didn't have anything like that. No computers or any of this.
45:05
What did you wear Donald? You know, as what did you [crosstalk 00:45:11]?
45:10
[crosstalk 00:45:11]
45:12
What was your outfit?
45:16
Rags.
45:17
Just loose rags for a guy?
45:22
[inaudible 00:45:21] I've seen this.
45:42
Is this the only Saturday's Child that's on Vimeo?
45:51
I think so, yeah. Well, I did a version for the American Dance Guild. I don't think anything was made public.
46:03
[crosstalk 00:46:03] no. I don't think this is public either.
46:13
No, no. I think I had a clip. Then when I got the contract to it I made it private. I think I had a clip on my webpage. It's funny I was also just even coming up the street noticing the homeless on the street with the carts and the bags, the sleeping bag over the ... It's interesting when you do pieces like this. I don't know if this happened with you or if this happens with y'all. When you start doing pieces and they're of a topic you start seeing those beings and bodies a little different, those people.
47:41
Don't fix the collar too nicely.
47:43
I know.
47:43
Put one of them inside. Just put one of the collars inside so it's disheveled.
47:51
Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't button it even. I've got it evenly buttoned so already screwing things up. Yeah, that helps to keep it more ...
48:33
When you're moving it will ... yeah.
48:41
That pile.
48:41
[crosstalk 00:48:45]
48:45
Don't you love costumes? Two minutes ago I was like rehearsal dancer with my ADF shirt. Now it's like ... A little more do you think?
48:49
A little more, yeah. [inaudible 00:49:05]
48:49
Get out of here. Get out I said.
50:52
Some are teethed on a silver spoon, with the stars strung for a rattle. I cut my teeth as the black raccoon for implements of battle. Some are swaddled in silk and down, and heralded by a star. They swathed my limbs in a sackcloth gown on a night that was black as tar. For some, godfather and God-dame the opulent fairies be. Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me. For I was born on a Saturday. "Bad time for planting a seed," was all my father had to say and, "One mouth more to feed." Death cut the string which gave me life and handed me to Sorrow. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.
56:21
That's it.
56:33
Death cut the string. Do we want the hand straight across the throat like you slice the throat, or a across the chest?
56:44
The throat.
56:44
Like that.
56:44
I feel like I should have gone ... If I did the chest, yeah.
56:47
Keep the elbow straight away so it's very clear. I like your hair.
56:48
Actually, [inaudible 00:56:49]. Death cut the string. Okay. Okay. Anything else you can think?
57:08
Hello dear.
57:08
Hello.
57:08
Hello, [crosstalk 00:57:12] nice meeting you.
57:08
Hi. You as well. Nice to meet you as well.
57:17
Her hair is beautiful now. Do you like her hair?
57:18
I am glad you are all here. [crosstalk 00:57:20]
57:18
Yes.
57:20
I like it better without the bandana.
57:22
Without the bandana.
57:23
Oh, anyway, that's me. Your face is so clear and it doesn't look like you're trying to keep your hair up.
57:31
Okay. Do you have any [crosstalk 00:57:33]?
57:33
I like it with the bandana.
57:33
You do?
57:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
57:34
With the bandana.
57:36
Nevermind.
57:41
Anything else? How does the rest of the costume feel to you?
57:45
Fine.
57:45
Fine.
57:48
Nothing like what I wore.
57:51
nothing like?
57:51
What I wore.
57:51
What did you say you wore? I think I heard you ask the question, but I didn't hear. Do you remember what you wore? No.
58:00
I remember some things, but other things are just smokey in my head.
58:04
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
58:09
The last thing that I recall is the hands, when you're looking at them both times, is it nothing in your hands? You have nothing? Is that basically it?
58:17
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
58:18
Don't let them get buried in your costume.
58:20
Okay.
58:20
Somehow you've got to show, "I've got nothing.
58:24
Okay, okay. Yeah.
58:28
Then it goes out.
58:30
Yeah, my hand ... okay. Okay. Yeah.
58:45
Beautiful.
58:45
You done good.
58:45
Thanks. Thank you.
58:45
Do you like that [crosstalk 00:58:46]?
58:45
Thank you.
58:45
Would you rather have somebody that's [inaudible 00:58:48] leggings and something wrapped around them or you like torn pants only?
59:00
I was saying earlier, that something someone said to me, was that it was interesting that you couldn't tell if I was male or female, which seemed interesting to me.
59:10
Yes, because this dance can be done by a male or female.
59:15
Right.
59:15
It was first done by me.
59:17
Right. Then done by Janet. There you go.
59:21
Well, Janet many years later.
59:21
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
59:21
I did it when I was 18.
59:21
That's good [crosstalk 00:59:22] do it the way you feel it should be what you are wearing.
59:34
Yeah, this feels, if it works for Mr. McKayle then-
59:37
Yeah.
59:38
Your voice does say it's your [inaudible 00:59:40].
59:42
Oh yeah. Well, it's a little deep. Sometimes in the morning when I get called by the telemarketers they're like, "Mr. Mason?" I'm like, "Yes. Sure. No, I don't want any."
59:59
That's good.
1:00:04
Any other thoughts and I'll let you be on your way today?
1:00:08
I think you're terrific.
1:00:10
Thank you, sir.
1:00:10
Beautiful.
1:00:10
Thank you sir. Thank you all.
1:00:10
I'm sorry I missed it.
1:00:15
Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing with us your work.
1:00:20
Thank you. I was saying to them earlier, I think everybody was still coming in, I was saying that a big part of this work, it's actually not about me. I want to be able to share this with ... this experience, to be able to work with all those choreographers one on one has been so amazing. I'm like, "I shouldn't be the only one with that experience. That's where the idea of turning it into a digital archive, because nobody watches PBS specials anymore. Nobody even has DVDs in their computers anymore. I want to put it online in a way, and we're still figuring out exactly how all that will happen, so that students and people who are interested in this kind of work can see the interviews, can see the work, can have access to it and keep it so it's not just a history [crosstalk 01:01:09].
1:01:09
This is so relevant. [crosstalk 01:01:15]
1:01:14
Have you done interview or does interview still to be done?
1:01:15
It's happening now.
1:01:15
That's the other thing that's [crosstalk 01:01:15] is one of the pieces, the piece with David Rusev, was about who has the right to marry.
1:01:21
Oh, I don't want to be in [crosstalk 01:01:21].
1:01:21
That was a conversation that we started 15 years ago and that has completely shifted in the last 15 years. He made that piece after Bush got elected the second time. What has happened between now and then? Again, this idea, because I think we think history, and we think things aren't relevant, but we're still dealing with a homeless problem.
1:01:44
[crosstalk 01:01:44] ahead of his time.
1:01:46
I was saying that this piece is 70 years old. 70. It's amazing to do something that is still so relevant.
1:01:59
I was precocious.
1:02:01
Yes.
1:02:06
[crosstalk 01:02:04] except that the bill sticks were replaced by guns. They're still relevant.
1:02:18
Yeah. We're still talking about police brutality.
1:02:20
[crosstalk 01:02:21]
1:02:21
Oh yeah.
1:02:22
Coming into communities, killing brown folks and harassing ... I think that was such a shock to people because we were like, "I thought we made it past that. I thought we weren't there. Now we have a president who can say things about women and it's not a ... we were hoping we were past some of these things that are still so very, very relevant. It's artists who help us have these conversations. When I first started learning this there was this conversation also about black dance. That wasn't a term, that wasn't a label, that the choreographers gave themselves. That was something that the white critics, who hadn't seen anything like that, that wasn't being put on stage. There was something about the works of these African American artists that they were speaking too, but they said black dance, which then lumped a whole group of folks together.
1:03:26
I felt like we were losing the diversity of voices within an entire population. Just because you were black during that time didn't mean that you were all making the same kind of work. Allio Piermario was making this kind of work. Mr. McKayle was making this. Dianne McIntyre was making a whole different kind of work. I felt like when I was coming up I knew my body wasn't the type necessarily ... I wasn't necessarily going to be an Alvin Ailey even though I loved the work. I was trained in ballet. I wasn't necessarily going to be a part of Dance Theater of Harlem.
1:04:06
When I was growing up in high school those were the two options that were given to me. I was like, "I like Paul Taylor in Hubbard Street. There's all of these other artists that are making work that I also think ..." That's where the no boundaries came from. The diversity of voices. Also, it's not about a race thing. What do we get to do on stage? We had pioneers making work about things that mattered. What now can we see on stage that we couldn't ... it has opened doors for all of us. Nobody has a claim on that kind of work or that kind of work. We are all in conversation.
1:04:55
[inaudible 01:04:53] whatever period of time or whatever president [inaudible 01:04:59].
1:04:59
Mm-hmm ( affirmative).
1:05:00
[crosstalk 01:05:00]
1:05:00
I lived through a lot of them.
1:05:13
What did you say?
1:05:13
I lived through a lot of them.
1:05:13
Yes. I said you're lucky to live the world the first American black president. [crosstalk 01:05:17]
1:05:17
Did you think that would happen?
1:05:17
No. Not at all.
1:05:26
What advice would you give young people? I'm sure you give to them all the time, but I just want to hear it. What you would tell them about-
1:05:35
I want them to do what's inside their soul to let it come out. Each one should be individual because they are. We have to have a need to do dances. I want to do this. This is something I want to show. I don't know how I came about that when I started to do dances before I learned to dance. I really didn't think of that.
1:06:13
How many of y'all are choreographing too? I didn't know that I liked choreographing. I wanted to dance. I was like, "I want to dance." Then, in the process of continuing to follow my heart through dance, then I started making work. Kind of because I had to. It started as a solo. The No Less Black solo actually started as a poem that I was writing. Not for people to hear, but I wrote it and then I made a dance to it. Then I made an evening length work to it. That was the first big thing I made. Then I just kept making things. I still think I'm a dancer. Now I'm a professor. I wasn't like, "I'm going to be a professor at the university." I just kept following that curiosity. The next thing you know I'm a professor at a university. Hilarious. It's not hilarious. It's awesome, but it wasn't in the plan. All the things that I learned when I was studying, when I was taking my ballet classes and my modern classes and then African classes and then dancing in the clubs all of that stuff ends up being in the work. Again, you're talking about your real life. This was my communities. This was things that I'm curious about. Sometimes there's not a [tan-dews 01:07:43] but I needed my [tan-dews 01:07:47]. I was in Ralph Lemon's work. I don't know if you all are familiar with him. He just won a national metal of honor for his artistry. You get that from the president, so he got it from Barack Obama. Really, experimental and he tried to make an un-dance, like take away all of the form, and it's like I still needed my dance training to do what I did. People will be like, "You don't need to dance to know how to do that." "Well, you do it." All the stuff that I thought ... the education comes from everywhere. Walking down the street, noticing the homeless people on the side, paying attention. Enjoy. Enjoy.
1:08:46
We find today, a lot of the choreography of today [inaudible 01:08:51] major choreographer. It's not the human experience. It's becoming robotic. It's like our computers instead of the human contact. We never had these things before. We are always in contact with each other in the studio, on the stage, wherever.
1:09:07
Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 01:09:08]
1:09:10
We spoke to each other on the phone all the time. I think Donald's work, it's so human. Every aspect of his works are the human being. Dancers are human beings. They're not machinery. The experience or the communication that comes across is the human experience, not the machinery. You can have all the lighting in the world and bebop music. That doesn't mean anything. It doesn't touch the soul like his ballets do. When you're making new works what do they mean to us anymore? Like you said it was not [inaudible 01:09:49]. But you need those [inaudible 01:09:51] to make what you did happen. It's a whole different kind of experience looking at dance today and what's coming out.
1:10:01
I actually think something that's common about the dances that are in the project, again it wasn't intentional, I was just working with the people who I was really interested in. Everybody's human. Everyone is about the human condition. Probably also because I know my limitation. Somebody else can get their leg higher then me and do more pirouettes.
1:10:20
That makes it even more interesting.
1:10:21
Yeah. I think all of the pieces are actually about the human experience. They're about people not pyrotechnics. That's not my expertise.
1:10:32
[inaudible 01:10:33] 17 pirouettes.
1:10:36
Ssshhh. Yeah, no that won't be me unless you want me to hop a lot. I like a pirouette, but yeah. All right, well I will let you continue on with your day. Thank you all for coming.
1:10:57
Thank you.
1:10:58
Thank you for facilitating all of this.
1:10:58
Bravo. Bravo.
1:10:58
Thank you.
1:10:58
You're great.
1:10:58
Thank you.
1:10:58
Good luck.
1:10:58
Thank you Mr. McKayle.
1:10:59
Oh, I think you're wonderful.
1:11:01
Thank you.
1:11:01
What's the date of your showing?
1:11:03
April 6th and 7th in Brooklyn. I got about a month to get all the things-
1:11:09
Billy Holiday Theater.
1:11:10
Billy Holiday Theater in Brooklyn. 651 Arts is producing it. They're an organization based in Brooklyn in combination with Restoration Arts. If anybody happens to be in New York.
1:11:21
[inaudible 01:11:23]
1:11:25
Yeah.
1:11:25
[crosstalk 01:11:26]
1:11:27
Feel free to stalk me on Facebook. It's okay.
1:11:30
Soft stalk.
1:11:31
Soft stalk.
1:11:32
Soft stalking.
1:11:35
I can give you my email.
1:11:37
Yeah, I was going to ask you yeah.
1:11:40
Gmasonprojects.
1:11:40
M-A-S-O-N.
1:11:40
Mm-hmm (affirmative), Gmasonprojects.
1:11:45
Projects.
1:11:52
@gmail.
1:11:52
It'll come from AzminC. That's my last name, Azmin. You're like, "What is that?"
1:12:00
Wonderful.
2018 Jumping the Broom Performance - 2025 October Annotation
00:05
"Funny how it's the little things we remember about the times we want to forget. Guess my mind remembers the chirp of the crickets at sunset and the smell of sweet summer grass in hopes my heart might forget seeing my wife like that."
00:28
A warm spotlight slowly fades up to reveal Gesel standing upstage right, wearing a tattered white lace wedding gown with a red flower afixed to the center of her chest. Her arms are exposed all the way to the shoulder and her wrists are bound by a chain. Her body slowly turns to the right. Her arms are raised above her head as if hanging from something and her gaze is toward the sky. The raspy voice continues.
00:29
"But I can't never forget that sight. Or that it happened. Just 'cos we was so much in love."
00:37
Gesel's body makes a jerking motion.
00:38
Gesel makes a gasping sound.
00:40
The raspy voice continues, "You see, I never knowed nothin' greater than the palm of Jesse's hand stroking my face as I fell asleep in her arms."
00:41
Gesel slowly begins turning her body to the right.
00:49
Gesel makes a coughing sound and her body jerks in response.
00:52
Gesel continues turning to the left, then slowly begins to turn to the right.
00:52
The raspy voice continues, "That's what got me through those hot days of picking. At night, when Jesse'd blow on the blisters on the back of my neck, and wipe my face with her palms, even the life of a slave somehow started to seem worth living."
01:01
Gesel makes a coughing sound.
01:11
Gesel's hands drop to her chest and the weight of her arms pulls her upper body down. Her body wavers back and forth slightly as if totally exhausted.
01:11
"If Yesterday Could Only Be Tomorrow" by Nat King Cole begins to play. The music is soft and romantic. Its long, drawn-out notes make the song slow and relaxing to listen to.
01:28
The warm spotlight begins to become brighter around Gesel.
01:30
Gesel slowly struggles to lift her head and look toward the audience. Her body shakes with fatigue.
01:35
Gesel slowly turns her gaze stage left. She reaches her arms in the direction of her gaze. Her arms seem heavy as her fingers slowly wriggle, as if reaching toward something beyond her gaze.
01:59
Gesel slowly curls her fingers in and lowers her arms. Her face shifts from a look of determination to sadness, as if what she is reaching for cannot be reached.
02:00
Gesel slowly lowers her arms and drops her head. Her upper body crumples forward and slowly relaxes toward the ground.
02:12
Gesel suddenly flings her hands behind her to her right. She gasps.
02:12
Gesel's arms slowly lower as her upper body dips closer to the ground, arching toward the sky. Her gaze slowly turns upwards. She gradually comes to a standing position with her gaze still raised toward the sky.
02:26
Gesel's body arcs to the left and her upper body slowly crumples toward the ground as she lowers her gaze toward the ground.
02:36
She suddenly flings her arms back to her left side and gasps. Her body rebounds from the force and her upper body tilts forward slightly. She holds her gaze toward the downstage left corner.
02:39
Gesel's arms fling to the left again and she gasps.
02:42
Gesel flings her arms up above her head and her upper body drops to the left. She makes deep, gutteral sounds from her throat as if trying to speak but produces no words.
02:56
Gesel's arms drop to her left and her torso flops over as if from total exhaustion. She slowly drops her torso to the front and hangs limply.
02:57
The raspy voice continues, "I never understood how they could teach us about Jesus and then refuse to let us love. But on that man's plantation, slaves was forbidden to marry."
03:10
Gesel gasps and quickly pulls her hands into her chest. She gasps again and returns to a standing position with her hands still clutched to her chest.
03:11
The raspy voice continues, "But I loved Jesse with all my heart."
03:13
Gesel gasps and thrusts her head backwards and holds her face toward the ceiling. She pants slowly.
03:13
The raspy voice continues, "And I wanted to hold her forever. So whilst his family was away at church, all the slaves snuck out behind the last field of corn. Oh, we put a broom on the ground and while everybody was singing, and clapping, and dancing, me and Jesseâwe held each other tight and jumped over that broom."
03:25
Gesel drops her torso to the left, still panting, and then drops her head toward the ground.
03:41
Gesel begins scrunching the hem of her dress up her legs, revealing chains shackling her ankles. She slowly returns to a standing position and tilts her head toward the sky. She is still panting.
03:44
The raspy voice continues, "Then Jesse, she looked into my eyes and said 'I love you and now forever I am your wife.' And you know what? That was the only time in my life I knowed how it felt to be a full human being."
04:02
Gesel slowly turns her gaze forward and her face changes to a look of determination.
04:12
Her hands begin shaking. The shaking continues up her arm and into her shoulders until her whole body is shaking. She makes gutteral sounds from her throat that gradually get louder. She attempts to break the ropes that bind her wrists against her thighs by hitting her thighs repeatedly. She yells in frustration.
05:04
Gesel suddenly returns to standing and holds her hands splayed below her chin. Her mouth is gaping open and she pants rapidly. Her body pulsates in response to her panting. Her face is tilted toward the ceiling and her eyes are rolled back in her head.
05:06
The raspy voice continues, "Didn't take long for him to find out we had married. I come back from the fields on the prettiest summer evening just dreaming about the time I'd soon spend with Jesse. And there she was. Strung up by her hands with blood rolling down her back like tears falling down the wrong side of her body. They waited for me to see her. Then they cut Jesse down and loaded her into the back of his raggediest wagon and took her off to be sold."
05:24
Gesel's breathing slows and her panting deepens. Her body gradually relaxes as she bends her upper body forward.
05:49
The voice continues, "I remember Jesse's lips was trembling as she looked into my eyes and raised up her arms. Through chains she turned over her hands and showed me the palms that would never again stroke my cheeks, as if to say that for the rest of time, they would surely wish that they could."
05:53
Gesel extends her arms out in front of her and appears to be gazing at something beyond her reach. Her hands are splayed and her fingers are spread wide. She is breathing deeply and her body writhes with her breathing. She has a look of longing on her face.
06:11
Gesel's face turns to a look of anger and determination.
06:15
The voice continues, "I watched my whole life pull off and disappear in the back of that wagon. And all I could think was, 'But I just wanted to love her.'"
06:20
Gesel appears to become aware of something in the distance stage left. She slowly turns her gaze to the left.
06:30
The voice continues, "I fell to my knees. And though I have lived for forty more years, I cannot remember if I ever got up again."
06:31
Gesel reaches her arms toward stage left as her body slowly sinks to the ground. She comes to a sitting position and continues reaching toward stage left. A spotlight slowly lifts on stage left to reveal another dancer lying on the floor.
06:45
A recording of Gesel's voice is heard over the loudspeaker. She says, "Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a magnificent sun and white steps that glistened like magical porcelain. Maybe I remember these things in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed."
06:57
Gesel suddenly twitches and pulls her arms back slightly then reaches her arms again toward stage left. She furrows her brow then rapidly pulls her arms back toward her and flings them over her right shoulder.
07:04
The stage lights brighten to reveal another dancer lying limp downstage left of Gesel. The other dancer is wearing a brown men's suit with a black shirt underneath. Gesel gazes toward the ceiling and appears to struggle to hold her body upright.
07:06
Gesel's voice continues, "I loved Katherine with all my heart. And I had never known a thrill like running up the steps of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart pounding through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress.
07:22
Gesel flings her arms above her head. Her mouth hangs open. She appears to be both in pain and exhausted. Her body writhes with discomfort.
07:26
Gesel's hands and arms begin trembling. She lowers her arms to her right shoulder. She gazes toward the other dancer and reaches her arms toward her with longing and falls forward onto the ground.
07:29
Gesel's voice continues, "We were halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away. I do not know how to describe a look of utter devastation. The stoop of the shoulders, the tremble of the fingers, the reflection of the eyes of a heart that does not know if the next beat is worth taking. But that's what I saw in those couples. And right then and there, we knew. The weddings had been stopped. And that ours was, once again, forbidden."
07:41
Gesel presses her arms into the floor to drag herself across the stage toward the other dancer.
07:46
Gesel falls onto her back and gazes up at the ceiling. She reaches her arms above her head and uses her upper arms to continue pulling herself across the stage.
07:59
Gesel struggles to sit up. She falls back onto her back, then attempts to sit up again. She continues dragging herself across the stage. She moans with the effort.
08:06
Gesel's voice continues, "I don't know how long we stood there, unable to move, before Katherine managed to put her head on my shoulder. Then I remember the feel of her tears as they rolled down my breast, leaving tracks over my heart before they splattered onto those magical steps that no longer wished our feet to be there."
08:30
Gesel's voice continues, "Eventually we made it home. We got drunk on a bottle of wine while we listened to Nat King Cole. As I fell asleep in Katherine's arms with her palms stroking my face, I wasn't thinking about the politics of it, or the biology of it, or the right and wrong of it. I was too crushed for any of that to matter. That night, all I could think was, 'But I just wanted to love her.'"
08:38
Gesel lies flat on her back and grabs onto the dancer's left foot.
08:49
"If Yesterday Could Only Be Tomorrow" by Nat King Cole begins to play.
08:50
Gesel slowly extends her hand up the other dancer's ankle and drags the dancer toward her. Her face gives the impression that dragging the other dancer takes a tremendous effort.
08:55
Gesel extends her hand to the dancer's knee and pulls herself toward the dancer's limp body. Gesel continues dragging herself up the length of the dancer's body until her head comes to rest on the other dancer's chest.
09:02
Gesel's voice continues, "I fell asleep and dreamed about slaves jumping the broom to marry. But I suppose I was really dreaming about just how far this hatred could go.
09:14
Gesel struggles to sit up. She makes grunting sounds from deep in her throat and slowly drags herself closer to the other dancer's face. She grabs onto the other dancer's right arm and attempts to lift the other dancer off the ground. She continues grunting as if the other dancer's body is extremely heavy.
09:35
Onstage, Gesel weakly cries, "I just wanted to love her."
09:37
Gesel strokes the other dancer's palm down the side of her face and gazes up at the ceiling.
09:40
Gesel repeats, "I just wanted to love her."
09:43
Gesel continues stroking the other dancer's palm against her cheek.
09:46
Gesel repeats, "I just wanted to love her."
09:47
Gesel's voice softens and the lights fade to black.