Annotations for People: Gesel Mason

(unintelligible)

(laughter)

[pointing to a rosebush] Oh, look at that.

(unintelligible) (laughter)

(dog barking) My name is Gesel.

[laughing]

[laughing]

What's it-- what's the dog's name?

Mojo.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I won't be grabbin' it.

It's all on here. I don't--

Yeah.

Hm.

(laughs)

Right, right, right.

That's fine.

Aye yeet(??)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a magnificent sun, and white steps [holds up left hand] that [flattens hand and waves it in emphasis] glistened like magical porcelain. [wiggles fingers in a soft fist shape] Maybe I remember these things in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. I loved Katherine with all my heart. And I had never known a thrill like running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart [opens hand, facing out] pounding [hand returns to soft fist] through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were [swallows] halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away.

[turns toward 3rd Speaker] Mm-hmm.

[shakes head]

It's somewhere in there, yeah.

Funny how it's-”

[nodding] Okay.

Do you have something I could stand on?

Oh, okay. If I could have it lowered a little bit that would be great.

I just saw the [points to something at eye-level] thing--

(laughter)

(laughter)

[laughter]

Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a [raises right hand toward the lower right corner of the clipboard] magnificent [forms a soft fist] sun. And, and white steps [fans out fingers] that glistened like magical porcelain. [wiggles fingers in emphasis, then spreads her hand.] Maybe I remember these things [flips hand upward, then gently shakes her hand repeatedly towards her chest] in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. [waving hand up and down] I loved Katherine with all my heart and I had never [lifts voice, raises hand slightly] known [drops her hand] a thrill like [spreads her hand and pounds the air for emphasis] running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart pounding through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away. I do not know how to describe a look [nods head in emphasis] of utter devastation. The stoop of the shoulders, the tremble of the fingers, the reflection in the eyes of a heart the does not know if the next beat is worth taking. But that is what I saw in those couples. And right then and there, we knew. The weddings had been stopped. And that ours was, once again, forbidden. I don't know how long we stood there, unable to move, before Katherine managed to put her head on my shoulder. Then I remember the feel of her tears as they [inhales] rolled down my breast leaving tracks over my heart before they splattered onto those magical steps that no longer wished our feet to be there. Eventually, we made it home. We got drunk on a bottle of wine, listened to Nat King Cole. As I fell asleep in Katherine's arms, with her palm stroking my face, I wasn't thinking about the [pauses] politics of it. Or the biology of it. Or the right and wrong of it. No, I was too crushed for any of that to matter. That night, all I could think was, but I just wanted to love her. I fell asleep and dreamed about slaves jumping the broom to marry. But I suppose I was really dreaming about just how far this hatred could go.

Mm-hmm.

(unintelligible)

[nodding]

Funny how it's the little things we remember about the moments we'd rather forget. I remember a magnificent sun and white steps that glistened like magical porcelain. Maybe I remember these things in order to forget the feeling of my heart being crushed. I loved Katherine with all my heart. And I had never known a thrill like running up the steps in front of that courthouse with my arm around her. She was so excited that when I placed my hand on her chest, next to that red flower she insisted on wearing, I could feel her heart, pounding, through the faded lace of her grandmother's wedding dress. We were halfway up the steps when the long line of couples waiting in the sun began to turn and walk away. I do not know how to describe a look of utter devastation. The stoop of the shoulders, the tremble of the fingers, the reflection in the eyes of a heart that does not know if the next beat is worth taking. But that is what I saw in those couples. And right then and there, we knew. The weddings had been stopped. And that ours was, once again, forbidden. I don't know how long we stood there, unable to move, before Katherine managed to put her head on my shoulder. Then I remember the feel of her tears as they rolled down my breast, leaving tracks over my heart. Before they splattered onto those magical steps that no longer wished our feet to be there. Eventually, we made it home. We got drunk on a bottle of wine, listened to Nat King Cole. As I fell asleep in Katherine's arms, with her palm stroking my face, I wasn't thinking about the politics of it, or the biology of it, or the right and wrong of it. I was too crushed for any of that to matter. That night, all I could think was, but I just wanted to love her. I fell asleep and dreamed about slaves jumping the broom to marry. But I suppose I was really dreaming about just how far this hatred could go.

I think so.

Cause I'm gonna go for whatever leg is closest to me.

See, I'm going to end up pulling myself to her.

Yeah. [crosstalk] One more time.

Oh, to reach her foot.

Like here?

(laughter)

I'm not really—

Actually, can you go back to your original position?

Once she gets there it's like-”there's almost like an angle(??).

Oh, no. I just meant I had already pulled her once so she was-”

(unintelligible)

(unintelligible) (laughter)

Mm-hmm.

Ask me just that question of, you've heard me talk about it a little, but just what is this thing? Why do it 10 years later?

That is a good question. Why am I still working on this project 10 years later? Actually I was invited to do this project again. In a lot of ways, I've been ... The presenter from University of Albany, Kim, invited me to do this project again. And it's funny, she actually invited me to do it a while ago, and I didn't want to. And I did something instead. But then she came back. She's like, "Are you sure?" [inaudible 00:01:07] like, "For you, Kim, sure."

But there's something else. I had the opportunity to learn a work by Rennie Harris. And I thought, "This is a continuation of this project. This is a continuation of No Boundaries." When I started thinking about what this, what 10 years could be, I realized I was actually doing an anniversary edition of this project. And when I did that, it was a really great opportunity to rethink what is this now? What does this piece mean now? What does this project mean now, No Boundaries, dance in the vision of contemporary black choreographers? How is this different from what it was 10 years ago?

And that's a really interesting question. I feel like I've learned a lot from this journey. When I first started this project, I just wanted to dance with some people who I found fascinating and amazing. And they said, "Yes." And this project became a living archive. It became a living, evolving repertory of work. And I realized how important that was and how important it was to keep doing it and keep sharing it with audiences.

But I feel like I ended up immersing myself in dance history and evolving and living dance history. So, there's pieces from 1940s, and now there's pieces from right now in 2013, and pieces that are coming from different backgrounds, Rennie Harris's pieces using hip-hop and house. And that's so relevant and current. And I love that my body is sort of evolving through all of this as well. So, it's kind of amazing to be part of a living, evolving archive. And I feel like it's influenced my dancing. When I first did this, I wasn't thinking of myself necessarily as a black dancer or someone who does black dance. And yet, through this journey, it's been so amazing to be like, "Yes, I am a black dancer. And that is not all of who I am." And I've always known that, but in some ways, I felt like I was pushing against it because I didn't want to be labeled or seen in a certain way. I didn't want my work or the work of my fellow artists and choreographers or the people I looked up to be seen as a certain way.

And now, I feel like I embrace it. In a lot of ways, I don't allow myself to be pegged. And I feel like because by doing this work, I have embodied what it means, what black dance is. And I know that it isn't one thing or one idea or one ideal. And I know that it's a label that is placed onto work, and nobody necessarily says, "This is what I'm doing." People do the work. People investigate their cultures, their beings, their identity. And it doesn't make something just identity-based work. It's American work. It's what dance does, investigates, asks questions. And we all ask different questions about different things. And identity sometimes is part of that. And sometimes it has nothing to do with identity. It's beyond that. It's more than that.

And it's been great to go on that journey through this piece over 10 years and watch my body change and watch myself get older and get a few more gray hairs. It's been a great journey. And I'm actually glad now to have the opportunity to share it, to continue to share it with new audiences and new populations and to do new work and to have it continue to evolve. Yeah, that's really exciting. What else?

I want to talk a little bit about the video. I gotta contextualize that.

Yeah.

[inaudible 00:06:28]. I'm looking at this one dot. I found a dot to look at. Yeah, because otherwise I'll just ramble because it's all coming out of my head. That's what editing's for.

Yeah. When I first started this piece, I didn't necessarily know that I was going to be including documentary footage in between each of the pieces. I knew I wanted to do the work of these choreographers-

Sure.

I will take it. Some things have changed over the past 10 years. New technology. So, now do I look this way?

Yeah.

There's no clock in here.

I don't have my phone.

Okay.

No. I think I got it. A few things have changed since I did this 10 years ago. A few more gray hairs, just a couple. But also technology has changed quite a bit. When I first did this piece, I didn't know that I was going to be using all the documentary footage in between each of the pieces. So, we were shooting footage, but I didn't necessarily know that they were going to be a part of the show. So, I had my little camera, my little Canon, nothing professional. I think eventually we figured out that we should use microphones.

There's shots of people sitting in front of light, terrible contrast. But at the same time, it's a part of the archive. It's a part of the piece. And what people were telling us then I think is still really important. But I also want to, as this archive continues to evolve and the repertory continues to grow and change and shift, I also want to continue to add the new video, the new technology. And I really am interested in doing additional interviews and going back and talking to some of the choreographers and finding out how their work has evolved in the last 10 years.

Some people are doing dance for camera now. Some people have retired. Some people, lives have changed in the past 10 years. And I'm very interested in their reflections about what this work is now, what it was then, what the project means now for them. So, yeah, as a part of this archive, you get to see what we were doing at the very beginning and how the piece evolves all the way up to the present time. And that includes really crazy footage from really old cameras. Yeah.

Yeah. Anything else? I think some of it was in there on the floor, talking about that using that.

Like I said, that's another image. And in there, I talked about Rennie's piece, and then I talk about the other choreographers. Just talked about the footage, talked about the why of doing it again, even a little bit about the hopes for what this piece is. I might even borrow some of the footage that ... Because I said it. I felt like I said it really clearly for [Erica 00:12:13].

If that's possible. What else?

Cross, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it.

Thank you.

You talked about that. I love that you talked about, thinking about this relationship to this project ... It helps me think about audience. We talked about that a little bit, this morning too.

Yeah. She didn't have too much, though, did she? But you said how you often word the flow chart is that kind of talk it through ... ?

Of the futurity and the young people. We have this opportunity to craft how we want to be heard.

Instead of, let me explain so you can understand and be a part of this conversation. We're going to have this conversation. You get to be witnesses, and we get to ... I don't know who says that, but teach people the way you want to be understood.

I appreciated you talking, also, about the young people.

What is this conversation 20 years from now?

Why it's important. It's continuing to make space for you.

The other thing I wanted you to speak to was just your experience of what you saw. Unwrapped is just, again, a tiny part of the larger documentary project we want to do. It almost feels like Unwrapped is a mini version of the larger thing that I want to create.

So this is just the beginning? You have this performance, but this is the beginning of a rehearsal?

Yeah.

I'm also curious what resonated for you, in the performance, and maybe how those residences are a part of this larger conversation, in terms of what I want to do, however you understand that. What you were left with, what resonated for you in the performance that you saw?

Wow.

That's interesting. It's interesting, the #negrophobia is interesting because as part of my school, something came up, I've been calling it hophobia, and what I realized is that you can have IHOP, which is internalized ho phobia, fear of being perceived as a ho, for being a ho, for being perceived as a ho. So that has come out of my work, this idea of ho phobia. So it was interesting to hear you say negrophobia, because that's been something that's been percolating in my work, this idea of ho phobia.

Well, the piece that I did before this one, which is called antithesis, was also exploring a lot with women and sexuality and what's appropriate and what isn't. And it was called Women, Sex, and Desire, Sometimes you feel like a ho and sometimes you don't. And I'm the kind of person, I was like, "Well, if I'm going to say some thing like sometimes you feel like a ho and sometimes you don't, then I need to talk to some hos. And so I was doing some work in D.C. with sex workers and whatnot and I'm also of the mind like there are not as many degrees of separation as people like to put between us and [crosstalk 00:05:16] ...

And in all my work, I'm actually very interested in this, what we keep secret, what's considered taboo, which is also part of that secret, and how we create otherness. It's sort of like underneath all of these questions. And how do we live, love, and persevere, just in general. So when I did this work, again, it's like when you interact with other people, I just lean so much from them.

Yeah, that's powerful. I'm curious about your relationship to the work with some other African American choreographers.

And also, it's just so interesting to see the questions that they struggle with. I was like that is everybody's question, like, "What will my partner think of me if they know blank blank, blank, blank, blank? How do I, with my own self-image, did I sell out? Can you hold these questions, can you hold onto yourself even if this is the thing that you're doing?" Like, how can you be like, "Yeah. No, I have to do this and I'm okay"?

How they all have different approaches. I was asking [Defrance 00:06:04]. Did somebody take your water?

Do you want one? [crosstalk 00:06:14]

I'm interested in where there's this sort of larger question of trauma. I'm like, "Who is actually traumatizing us?" Do you know? Like, these things are going to keep happening, they happen, they change, they evolve, but they are still happening, so I'm like, the thing that I can control is me and my thinking, so how do I, when I see those images, when I hear that story again, when I feel like you want to leave something in the past, but it's like how do I every single time take that hold and move forward, not in a forgiving sort of way, and definitely honoring that moment and that life and that presence and all of that and that violence.

How all these different people approach the work, including, I am a mess.

Different ways that people are engaging with this question, the difference between Bebe and [Jowalay 00:06:42].

Coming from completely different ways, I guess, even talking about, what is dance? What is contemporary dance? People who, again, wouldn't put their blackness in the forefront.

Yet, they are a part of this cannon.

I'm wondering about people that you've worked with, how you think they are contributing to this conversation, without like, I am contributing to this conversation.

But how do I not keep re-traumatizing myself and compounding? Because then it's like it's impossible. Do you know? It's impossible. So, just that idea of a ho phobia and working with those women and then working with the women that I worked with to create the piece, just this deep fear of being perceived as a ho. Like, I don't want to be by my partner, by society, and so all of these things that end up being off-limits, and this is how I ended up getting to antithesis and this exploration of the erotic and the exploration of pleasure.

Including the people on this project. It's larger than the people we saw on stage. Then people who aren't in this project, of course. I'm wondering if you could speak to other work, and the way that it feels like it's also in conversation with ...

And that's also generational, too, Is that a reclamation of the word? For me, it's more recognizing whether it's an internalized fear or something that you continue to impose on yourself. When is it put off limits because I'm afraid of being perceived as a ho? I'm afraid of being perceived as somebody who sells myself, I'm afraid of being perceived as somebody's who's less-than, who's giving herself away, who's ...

How do we think that translates into this project, to this negrophobia, ho phobia, but not even so much that, but the side things that continue to influence the way that we think about the Black body, the Black body in performance, because trauma? The complexity of presenting the body in what spaces. What comes up when we think about, I guess, maybe the complexity of one presenting the Black body with a Black body in performance? What are some of these things?

Then just the part about some of the ...

Artists, yeah.

Or even experienced.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Or even the larger question of, both historically and currently, artists that you feel, from Bill T to Bebe, to names that we don't know, how they intersect with this question, even though ... Like with Bebe there's a big pushing ... Like what you said, that black is part of the texture, but it's not the nature of the work.

When we did How Can You Stay in the House All Day and Not Go Anywhere with Ralph, or no, Come Home Charley Patton, there were people who were like, he's finally doing something black. I was like, that's fascinating. Then, I really appreciated being part of How Can You Stay in the House, just because that was the first time I had ever been in an all black company.

It had everything to do with being black.

The work we were doing was inherently black and also had nothing to do with being black.

It's not about a thing, but part of where it was stemming from was the loss of his partner.

We created this movement practice, that had a lot to do ... We called it fury, but it was fury that doesn't anger. It's fury that is that passion, that is uncontrollable, yet it's contained.

He was interested in the formless.

How do you make the body disappear? We're also dealing with the ravages of cancer. It doesn't say, wait, hold on a second. I'm not ready.

You have these black bodies doing movement that was hard, that was painful to the people doing it, and yet we're trying to find joy and make our bodies disappear. It is hard, and it hurts.

We argued with him, but he was a part of that process. It was all of that.

But audiences watching it would get so angry, and then you had [Oakly 00:14:52] crying for 12 minutes.

In a deep wailing.

In countries, there are professional wailers.

I need somebody professional to get to this level of grief. She put herself there. She did the work, and she cried for 12 minutes. It was not comfortable, and people left and all of that stuff. What was interesting was people's responses to these black bodies doing what we were doing.

All of a sudden, the conversation was that same thing, where you're like, there's this thing that we're doing, but all of a sudden it was this violence against the black body. You'd hear some people's response. These were white people, who were having this response. The Civil Rights movement. All of this stuff came. It's not that it's not there, but that is not what this is about.

Ralph also was like, there's no resistance to that.

Or like Bebe does Rain. She's wearing a red dress, and it's green. She's black, and it's the colors of ... You know. I'm thinking, also, about these ways that we do the work, and you don't forget your blackness, or even just wanting to be this body on stage.

I actually tried to do a project. I was like, can I actually make a dance where the first thing you don't see ... It was an experiment. It was an assignment, and I was just curious if I could do this work without being ...

Perceived as black. I knew it was impossible, but I just wanted to ... What if?

I guess, I'm thinking about different artists, how they've been in conversation with that question. You can't stop being black, but ti isn't about that. I don't know. It's that complex, what you're talking about.

I'm just wondering about your experience with either artists that you've worked with or artists that you've seen, or even personally. You talked a little bit about your personal ...

Yeah. How you also see other artists in conversation with this. I guess it's that conversation of black dance.

That's a lot.

Well I was actually wondering if you would talk a little more about that, through the intersections that you see, because I've heard you say how, when we were talking about this just this morning, often a part of a panel to be invited to contribute, and a lot of times we're the one representative, or whatever.

But what has been nice in terms of being a part of this? And also, the reasons why it's important to you. You spoke a little bit to the ways that it's intersecting with your work. Why is it nice to be a part of something like this and in what ways does it deal with some of the questions that you're also dealing with?

Good.

Thank you so much.

Oh, yes.

That's a question ... I really like that. Sometimes I ask myself this question. Who would we be without our history?

Not an erasure, but that baggage, that thing, that huge thing, which I think is what our young people are like, do I really [crosstalk 00:23:47]

Right, exactly. The things that label you. It cuts off possibility.

Just the space of the, what if?

Which is the question of the legibility and illegibility.

What if?

The other thing, when I was creating this work, is I kept seeing students continue to struggle with the same thing.

Next year, same thing. Next year, same thing. I did my solo, that I made a long time ago, that was called No Less Black. It was almost like, okay, let's take into consideration the fact of blackness, and now what?

Young people are coming up to me, going, thank you. I made that piece in 1999.

They're like, thank you.

I feel that way. What people expect of me. If I do that, then I'm not black enough and I'm not representing my heritage. From this one end, it's like, I'm not honoring where I came from, and then on this end, I'm trying to just be me.

When work gets created, I feel like work ends up being burdened with this idea of [crosstalk 00:25:08]. Not just blackness, but all of these ism's that we have.

The women are making work about being angry. The black people make work ... And it's real. These are real issues that we are all grappling with, the freedom.

Where that freedom comes in, to be able to make that-

One of the things you talked about and that you noted in the project as well is the curatorial aspect. And I'm curious what you find when thinking about that in this project?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

And you are.

You are doing that.

I had them write these manifestos, because I was like, there's something you believe in, there's something you believe, there's something you find, there's something you're attracted to, there's something that you're pushing against.

That no fear, I think all of that is at the heart of this exploration of the erotic.

Where the space is, where we can create and practice, and embody this idea of the erotic, as Audre Lorde calls it, this extreme joy.

The audacity of that kind of joy in your body.

We have to make [crosstalk 00:27:45]

-spaces where you're not policed.

You talk about that surveillance, yeah.

I like ugly too. I do. That's one of the [crosstalk 00:29:50]

Okay. Yes, uh-huh. The work from Donald McKayle, that I picked.

Again, Angelitos Negros is the ...

I was like, there are some beautiful people. They should do that work.

Let me do this work. Let me do that.

I'm not ...

I had a review that actually commented on that too. She's not afraid to be ugly.

That brings up two things for me. One, is the reminder that Tommy De France gave us about how things interrupt. Now that is a crucial and exciting part of this conversation. How do each one of these pieces when they were created, what they do now, how they continue to interrupt?

There's something that's so visceral.

It's the strange reason I enjoy doing David's work.

I like being chained and [crosstalk 00:30:43]

There's something [crosstalk 00:30:46]

Well, it makes it real. I have bruises. It hurts. It makes it so that it's visceral. I think that's something, even when I'm trying to do Diane's piece, I'm interested in the visceral.

I'm trying to ... I'm thinking about the ritual of pulling up from the earth.

It's got to be real.

Ti's got to be real.

I'm going to let you be free and go off.

Yes. [crosstalk 00:31:33] Who thought that was a good idea?

I think that's the other thing that I was thinking about when we were talking at [inaudible 00:34:52] today. This idea about freedom. So, it's easy to go, "Oh, that's old school." But the time at which it was made, there's this forging ahead, which is where I think whatever label makes sense, something gets called something because it keeps ... And then that can become the difference. Also, we talked about, which is true, our language tends to want to fix so that I understand it, and that dance is about flexibility in many ways. I'm always talking about, like so what does it mean as we continue to change and evolve and you have white bodies doing historically ...

And how sometimes you're like, "How do I feel about that? I'm not sure." And at the same time, as artists, we also have this desire to not be marked ... Like I love this thing that you're saying like Blackness is a texture, dance is a texture. It's not the things. There's this whole other thing, but of course, that's in there. You don't subtract it.

It can't subtracted.

It's a reality.

But also the freedom to be able to do this work came from the people who are continually are on the forefront, being labeled, being named, being put in a box, breaking out of that box, reconfiguring the box, moving forward, calling it something different, et cetera, et cetera. And you see the work that continually needs to be done of the forging ahead, of the interrupting and I think that's something that's exciting to think about in terms of the way that performance and Black bodies continue to interrupt what we perceive as ... I guess that's part of it, that's where the racism sort of comes in, there's a structure, because it wouldn't be an interruption if it was actually seen as, "Oh this is the norm."

So what's important about having that through a Black lens? So it's like, okay, we talk about the way that we continue to change, we [crosstalk 00:40:19]. Why performance? Why dance? Why the body? Why ... And I mean, as we see, we're pulling from all these people. Why look at this through the lens of Black performance theory?

That's a good question, actually. Well, I actually think I'm thinking about society, because we were talking about Obama, we're talking about 2105, we're talking about being firsts, interrupting spaces, places, cultures, structures. So it feels like we're talking about societal ...

And then I think another part of this is destructive in the sense of, well why look at something like ... So there's kind of two thises, theses, thises that are happening. The, in general, why look at Black performance? And then, why, because I think it's a little bit, also, speaking to this question that I have been asking which continues to evolve and shape of this like, well, is it worth having this question about Black dance?

And there feels like there's two different type of definitions, the one that put us in the box of describing the specific period of time that somebody else was one, the expressive form, and this question of what is it that Black people are doing and making and creating that is still relevant to larger conversations? So, yeah, the this of performativity, Black expressive arts and society and what about this project also ... Is it important? Why is it important? Just that question, important.

I actually just, I heard it ...

I saw Kate just go two, and I thought she meant it was two right now.

You talked about that. I love that you talked about, thinking about this relationship to this project ... It helps me think about audience. We talked about that a little bit, this morning too.

Of the futurity and the young people. We have this opportunity to craft how we want to be heard.

Instead of, let me explain so you can understand and be a part of this conversation. We're going to have this conversation. You get to be witnesses, and we get to ... I don't know who says that, but teach people the way you want to be understood.

I appreciated you talking, also, about the young people.

What is this conversation 20 years from now?

Why it's important. It's continuing to make space for you.

The other thing I wanted you to speak to was just your experience of what you saw. Unwrapped is just, again, a tiny part of the larger documentary project we want to do. It almost feels like Unwrapped is a mini version of the larger thing that I want to create.

I'm also curious what resonated for you, in the performance, and maybe how those residences are a part of this larger conversation, in terms of what I want to do, however you understand that. What you were left with, what resonated for you in the performance that you saw?

Yeah, that's powerful. I'm curious about your relationship to the work with some other African American choreographers.

How they all have different approaches. I was asking [Defrance 00:06:04]. Did somebody take your water?

Do you want one? [crosstalk 00:06:14]

How all these different people approach the work, including, I am a mess.

Different ways that people are engaging with this question, the difference between Bebe and [Jowalay 00:06:42].

Coming from completely different ways, I guess, even talking about, what is dance? What is contemporary dance? People who, again, wouldn't put their blackness in the forefront.

Yet, they are a part of this cannon.

I'm wondering about people that you've worked with, how you think they are contributing to this conversation, without like, I am contributing to this conversation.

Including the people on this project. It's larger than the people we saw on stage. Then people who aren't in this project, of course. I'm wondering if you could speak to other work, and the way that it feels like it's also in conversation with ...

Then just the part about some of the ...

Artists, yeah.

Or even experienced.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Or even the larger question of, both historically and currently, artists that you feel, from Bill T to Bebe, to names that we don't know, how they intersect with this question, even though ... Like with Bebe there's a big pushing ... Like what you said, that black is part of the texture, but it's not the nature of the work.

When we did How Can You Stay in the House All Day and Not Go Anywhere with Ralph, or no, Come Home Charley Patton, there were people who were like, he's finally doing something black. I was like, that's fascinating. Then, I really appreciated being part of How Can You Stay in the House, just because that was the first time I had ever been in an all black company.

It had everything to do with being black.

The work we were doing was inherently black and also had nothing to do with being black.

It's not about a thing, but part of where it was stemming from was the loss of his partner.

We created this movement practice, that had a lot to do ... We called it fury, but it was fury that doesn't anger. It's fury that is that passion, that is uncontrollable, yet it's contained.

He was interested in the formless.

How do you make the body disappear? We're also dealing with the ravages of cancer. It doesn't say, wait, hold on a second. I'm not ready.

You have these black bodies doing movement that was hard, that was painful to the people doing it, and yet we're trying to find joy and make our bodies disappear. It is hard, and it hurts.

We argued with him, but he was a part of that process. It was all of that.

But audiences watching it would get so angry, and then you had [Oakly 00:14:52] crying for 12 minutes.

In a deep wailing.

In countries, there are professional wailers.

I need somebody professional to get to this level of grief. She put herself there. She did the work, and she cried for 12 minutes. It was not comfortable, and people left and all of that stuff. What was interesting was people's responses to these black bodies doing what we were doing.

All of a sudden, the conversation was that same thing, where you're like, there's this thing that we're doing, but all of a sudden it was this violence against the black body. You'd hear some people's response. These were white people, who were having this response. The Civil Rights movement. All of this stuff came. It's not that it's not there, but that is not what this is about.

Ralph also was like, there's no resistance to that.

Or like Bebe does Rain. She's wearing a red dress, and it's green. She's black, and it's the colors of ... You know. I'm thinking, also, about these ways that we do the work, and you don't forget your blackness, or even just wanting to be this body on stage.

I actually tried to do a project. I was like, can I actually make a dance where the first thing you don't see ... It was an experiment. It was an assignment, and I was just curious if I could do this work without being ...

Perceived as black. I knew it was impossible, but I just wanted to ... What if?

I guess, I'm thinking about different artists, how they've been in conversation with that question. You can't stop being black, but ti isn't about that. I don't know. It's that complex, what you're talking about.

I'm just wondering about your experience with either artists that you've worked with or artists that you've seen, or even personally. You talked a little bit about your personal ...

Yeah. How you also see other artists in conversation with this. I guess it's that conversation of black dance.

That's a lot.

Good.

Thank you so much.

Oh, yes.

That's a question ... I really like that. Sometimes I ask myself this question. Who would we be without our history?

Not an erasure, but that baggage, that thing, that huge thing, which I think is what our young people are like, do I really [crosstalk 00:23:47]

Right, exactly. The things that label you. It cuts off possibility.

Just the space of the, what if?

Which is the question of the legibility and illegibility.

What if?

The other thing, when I was creating this work, is I kept seeing students continue to struggle with the same thing.

Next year, same thing. Next year, same thing. I did my solo, that I made a long time ago, that was called No Less Black. It was almost like, okay, let's take into consideration the fact of blackness, and now what?

Young people are coming up to me, going, thank you. I made that piece in 1999.

They're like, thank you.

I feel that way. What people expect of me. If I do that, then I'm not black enough and I'm not representing my heritage. From this one end, it's like, I'm not honoring where I came from, and then on this end, I'm trying to just be me.

When work gets created, I feel like work ends up being burdened with this idea of [crosstalk 00:25:08]. Not just blackness, but all of these ism's that we have.

The women are making work about being angry. The black people make work ... And it's real. These are real issues that we are all grappling with, the freedom.

Where that freedom comes in, to be able to make that-

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

And you are.

You are doing that.

I had them write these manifestos, because I was like, there's something you believe in, there's something you believe, there's something you find, there's something you're attracted to, there's something that you're pushing against.

That no fear, I think all of that is at the heart of this exploration of the erotic.

Where the space is, where we can create and practice, and embody this idea of the erotic, as Audre Lorde calls it, this extreme joy.

The audacity of that kind of joy in your body.

We have to make [crosstalk 00:27:45]

-spaces where you're not policed.

You talk about that surveillance, yeah.

I like ugly too. I do. That's one of the [crosstalk 00:29:50]

Okay. Yes, uh-huh. The work from Donald McKayle, that I picked.

Again, Angelitos Negros is the ...

I was like, there are some beautiful people. They should do that work.

Let me do this work. Let me do that.

I'm not ...

I had a review that actually commented on that too. She's not afraid to be ugly.

There's something that's so visceral.

It's the strange reason I enjoy doing David's work.

I like being chained and [crosstalk 00:30:43]

There's something [crosstalk 00:30:46]

Well, it makes it real. I have bruises. It hurts. It makes it so that it's visceral. I think that's something, even when I'm trying to do Diane's piece, I'm interested in the visceral.

I'm trying to ... I'm thinking about the ritual of pulling up from the earth.

It's got to be real.

Ti's got to be real.

I'm going to let you be free and go off.

Yes. [crosstalk 00:31:33] Who thought that was a good idea?

Yay. You know, actually I was reading with Anita, who I'm not familiar with-

I wonder if I do know her.

University of?

Good. I was really excited, I was like, "Oh, oh, oh," and before you came I shared some things with the students. I shared this intro because in reading the intro, I was like, "And I know you all are busy, but just read the first paragraph of," and there was something, there were a few things that stood out to me.

One is this idea of illuminating the capacity of black performance and black sensibilities to enable critical discussions of performance histories, theories, and practices. Authors here are less concerned with errors of omission in a historical genealogy of performance studies than a project of revelation, one in which the capacity of black performance is revealed as a part of its own deployment, without deference to overlapping historical trajectories or perceived differences in cultural capital from an elusive European norm.

I think about this project and feel like that's part of what is interesting to me about this, and what I also feel like I brought up again sometimes in trying to have this conversation like the conversation we had about black dance and always feeling like, "Oh, it's in opposition to white dance," which doesn't need to get talked about because it is sort of the norm, but still knowing that there is something really important about black subjectivity and black performance and what it does and why it does what it does.

I was wondering, even in reference to your own work or this project, I wanted to talk a little more about this idea of the importance of this is not about correcting an omission. This is about talking about what it is, in and of itself.

I also appreciate that you are also an artist, and a dancer and a scholar and all of this. I'm interested in how perhaps dance, you mentioned this I think when we were talking with the grads, the exceptionalism of dance and then at the same time, "Well of course you are in conversation," you know.

Sometimes when I'm whole, I'm about the body. I'm not about that. I'm interested in what is so important about taking the body into consideration, taking dance into consideration in a conversation like that and how scholarship is not so separate? It's a part of the theory. It is theory.

It's so funny because it's always like, "Yes, of course, how does nobody see," like this idea that yeah. You have to be flexibly engaged. That's, you know, the violence of language, of trying to fix things and if it's not fixed, then somehow it's not real or valid.

Even this comment on how every day gets dismissed, so social dances get dismissed and [Renee 00:17:03] Harris talks about, I know a lot of your work is centered also around social dance. He's like, well hip-hop, lindy-hop, these are the social dances of black people, that is black dance, how could it not be? Then these become markers in American culture, society, dances, and stuff like that. Yet, how it was, in a lot of ways dismissed, because oh, well we all do it, is really interesting. I'm wondering actually if something that came up in our conversations and maybe this intersects with the social dances or not, but this idea of interrupting and rupture and disrupting what performance can be, and where, maybe both how social dance and theatrical dance have been a part of that.

Sometimes we think about theatrical dance and don't think about how social dances are also interrupting spaces and how we see and think about performance. Maybe just to, and this will be another one where it's like, "Where shall I start," and then you just go on for 30 minutes. I'm thinking about interruption and rupture and disrupting what performance can be and where social dance, and also what we miss when we may see as concert dance?

I think you said the other day too, even the choice not to, you know, people are like, "I'm not political, that's not me, I don't," you know like when I started this, it's like, "Oh, I don't do a lot of dance," you know. I knew there was a thing that I was talking about. I wonder about the next generation coming, [crosstalk 00:25:43]-

Go for it.

Then on the other side of that spectrum, BB Miller.

I love that, black women quiet. How are we doing? [crosstalk 00:32:50]

Okay.

Yes, [crosstalk 00:32:59]. It's really fantastic. Well you know, and some of these things you've been saying, a lot of this is intuitive. She actually says that. It's not in this video, you won't see it, but when I asked them all to talk about their work, she's like, "I'm more of an intuitive choreographer than not."

I got to learn Rain, that's the piece that I learned-

She talked about that moment, how when somebody saw the work, they were like, "Black, red, and green. That is what this is about." She's like, "Can't it be about," you know. This way of, I think that was one of the things that I was interested in. Did I always have to first be marked seen as black.

My friend, my partner at the time, who was a 6'3" black man from Texas, was like, "You will always be black. I know you want to identify first as a dancer and an artists, but you will always be black." It was like, "Okay, yeah," but I wondered about how to be in this world that doesn't, like Andrea Woods says, yes, of course, as a woman ... This is also got cut from the ...

She says, " If I want to make a work about sunflowers, well of course it has my experience of a black woman in it, but I don't have to call it black woman sunflowers," you know? You know, have the Oprah, you know. At the same time, recognizing also that, that became a push-against for me and realizing that oh, you don't actually all of these things can co-exist.

On the other side, you have BB Miller this way, and then you have Jawole, who started asking questions like, "Well why do I need to point my foot?" Her expression of black femininity and black womanhood. I think in some ways it feels like the interventions are more obvious, but I'm curious too in the other ways, in the ways that she also continues to push within her work and within the company and the kind of work she does with community.

It's something she was working on in different pieces, but it's original to me.

Then you were talking a little bit about black identity [crosstalk 00:40:21]-

Yeah.

I didn't [crosstalk 00:46:32]-

Wow.

Let me see if there was anything else [crosstalk 00:46:49]-

I was curious as we have this conversation, and we talk about the boundary, well what is the boundaries of [inaudible 00:47:27] or whatever, certain establishment. I'm curious about, we also started talking about the future.

Even this idea of how heavy black dance can take up so much space because we're trying to-

[crosstalk 00:47:50] bridges, then we end up here, and does that give us, how are young people, younger people, trans people, people with other identities or are experiencing their identities in a different way, how are they also in conversation with this?

I guess I wonder one, if there are people, because I haven't, if there's people that you've come across already that are having some of, artists already who are having some of these conversations and in different ways, maybe not even with dance. Maybe we can touch a little bit on how we get from that [inaudible 00:48:39], how we get from that conversation about yes, black dance and keep moving on beyond that. Then who and how are some of the ways that, that is happening? Maybe do some of the ... In the way that people are just choosing to live their lives and create their art.

Maybe let's start with the simple question, then-

Yeah.

[crosstalk 00:53:30]

It's interesting because where I'm headed with my other work with sexuality, I'm asking, it's like I want erotic dancers in the room, burlesque dancers, strippers, so what does that mean to like yeah, no, you set a piece on me.

The last thing that [crosstalk 00:54:15].

Th conversation you were having about how sometimes a discussion about black dance can end up being this, take the energy out of the room. We get stuck. [crosstalk 00:54:34]-

We were talking about the idea, there's this thing that you do, something that was sort of exciting was this, for me, in having these conversations, sometimes you realize that you get into this thing of explaining yourself to someone else. What happens when you're in the room for black folk, and who actually [crosstalk 00:57:06] the audience?

When you have that conversation and then you know that oh okay, I'm writing this for a grant, or this is the thing that they might get excited about, or it's that old conversation because yes, your mentor is saying, "Well what about the legacy?"

At the same time it's like I know I'm not really interested in that, but how do we talk about this thing that is actually super complex and super interesting, and it is dance, and it is black people dancing, but I don't want to make that documentary, what did you say, dance better? What was it? Free to dance better.

What happens if you take that question out and then you sort of interface with what it is versus this, but that becomes part of that, I think happens because of the explaining and the [crosstalk 00:58:05]-

We're doing, and then yeah, you start to-

I would say that's true.

In terms of what you're connected with, and even, and also, and being realistic about what I think I can do about within this work, how it continues to round out. That's why it is interesting, this idea of here, here, here.

[crosstalk 01:01:16] That thing.

It's because it's like when I was like oh, I need to add Diane, oh I want to add Blondell. [crosstalk 01:01:32]

She ended up, it wasn't about this project. We ended up talking, she came and was the person who led the post-show discussion about my woman and sexuality-

Work [crosstalk 01:01:51]-

I did. I did. I think, you know when I think about that, that's also why it's important. We're in a shifting time when we're thinking about legacies and some of these dance companies and talking about that, too. We're shifting. We always are shifting, but-

But I mean, maybe even some of the ... what imagery you might have, but the ... I think when we were talking about the lights, we were even talking about ... Because, you know, first you don't see the body at all.

It's sort of like a dusty-

Something ...

I think with the ... It was interesting because, in 12 Years A Slave, there's that image. I think it's [Lupedo 00:02:12], where the woman is actually around a pole?

And she actually I think is wearing a white dress.

It was actually, I saw that and I was like ... there it is.

2012?

That's easy to remember. 12 Years A Slave, 2012.

I think another image that I had ... It's interesting, I don't know if we ever talked about this, but some of it, some of the images that I'm playing with being in the role, one is when Matthew Shepherd is killed.

You know, and he was tied to a fence.

And so, dragging yourself to that body, seeing that body [crosstalk 00:03:45].

And then another one is actually ... I think I was, it was in Poland. I guess Auschwitz?

Where the train tracks just go and then they just, they stop right at the concentration camp.

And that image where you could say pulled off in the back of that wagon.

I feel there's this moment where I have this image of someone going away. Like you're going ... It's the end of the road, being pulled. That person is over there, you can't ever get back to them. This person. The train is moving away, so there's this image of literally seeing that being pulled away. And that's not an image we ever talk about, but it's an image that sometimes resonates with me in that moment.

We've talked a little bit about why you made this piece, and maybe you can talk about that again.

But then also what does it mean to be revisiting it now. Talking about its place in history, but also how it also comments on ... So, maybe where it came from, and where it's landing.

[inaudible 00:12:34]

[inaudible 00:12:56]

So, you were equating your work to Alvin Ailey?

In the sort of, I guess ... Again, I can't exactly remember, but I do think it was 2004, because I think it was also after Bush got elected, the second time. I think that's when we were working.

Yeah, we thought that was bad.

You were talking about how do you feel these conversation ... Now we're talking about transgender individuals, but like you said, there's violence against the other ... How do you feel like that's affected you working in the university and you see young people, and we were talking about what's going on here. How do you see how some of this legislation has impacted the youth? Or this moment in time. What do you feel like you're seeing in the art field, in your students, in young people?

How do you see perhaps the work of ... artists coming up now, people who are making work now, new artists and again, students ... how do you see them tackling this problem? Or how do you see a shift? Even in the last 10, 15 years, have you seen any shifts or trends in work? What are people making work about? What are they interested in making work about? How is it different, is it different at all than work we were making 10, 15 ... or you were making 10, 15-

You said it's probably coming from outside?

I thought it was coming from the speaker for a second.

When I started this project, one of the questions that I asked everybody was what is Black dance?

Which feels like a very ... I don't feel like that's a question that gets asked so much anymore, but I do think there's something about Black artists, and Black performance, and what African American choreographers of gender ... Now you're this and that, you know?

But how, perhaps, they are also speaking to issues and maybe what doors that has opened for other people to then go through as a result of what choreographers have forged. It's not so huge to now ... I was talking about [Donna McHail 00:25:44], and in 19, a poem ... and Doris Humphrey's like, "Maybe you should ..." You know?

And doing the work about homelessness. You know, and I asked him, I said, "Were people doing this?" He was like, "No." And I said, "What gives you the courage or the gumption, or the ... to be like no, I really need to make this work?" Do you feel like there's something that is something that artists of color, Black artists, is there something about Black performance that is not in a way to so condense everybody down to the same thing, but in a way that's more about sort of a pluralism? Is there something that you think folks, Black folks, are doing and do ... how do they affect the field in that way?

That's good. Because you know I'm a just ...

Do you feel ... Like you said, you've been making that all along. Are there any significant shifts that you can track in your own work? Like what you move more towards, or away from? Or found more intriguing?

I actually think that's happening a lot. I'm seeing more about-

And resilience, and knowing that in and of itself is also a political act in the sense of we don't have to just focus on yes, we continue to do the work, but there's also a joy and celebration is a part of it as well.

So, how has it been being in academia? Shifting from ... How long have you been here now?

Well, I also think ... Would you say that's also true ... I'd like to say that I think artists are gonna be the ones to sort of save the world. Like, you know, we talk about art is more. But I see artists as activists, and artists as being able to bring all of those things to our communities, that sometimes people don't necessarily look to the artist. They think of this thing that happens on stage, but there's also these ways that we're in our communities.

Last question. What do you like to do on a day off? Do you have any of those? Is there ...

Cool. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet.

To rehearsal.

Oh really?

Were you a student?

[crosstalk 00:00:23]

This was an opportunity. How did that happen that you had this opportunity to [crosstalk 00:00:43]?

All the company members-

Was it unusual to do a dance to a poem?

Was it also unusual to do work that was about homelessness?

Yes. What gave you the inspiration to break rules like that? You were, what, 18? [crosstalk 00:02:36]

Did you also know Countee Cullen?

You met him.

I read poetry, but it doesn't necessarily give me ... you all know you'll be in comp class or something like that and they'll be like, "Okay, am I going to get ..." ... in Dallas I went [crosstalk 00:03:54].

Well, yeah I mean the first time. This I would have learned it a lot later. Was that your company at that point?

Sudden Games.

Was that piece inspired by the [crosstalk 00:04:26]?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

That piece has been reset quite a few times.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. I don't remember who I saw it on, what company I saw perform it? Saturday's Child hasn't been reset.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then I think I learned it from you in, I'm not going to get this date right, maybe 2006.

I don't either. I stalked him. He didn't know that.

Yes.

Yeah. I call it soft stalking, like trying to do it without being annoying. I hope I wasn't annoying. I went to the American Dance Festival.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think I started learning it there.

Eliot Feld. Is there anyone else doing Saturday's Child?

All right, well maybe I should go do it.

Yeah.

I may ... yeah, y'all [crosstalk 00:07:15].

So, I'm going to hit that, so some of that might have to move a little bit. Just those [crosstalk 00:07:45]

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Some are teethed on a silver spoon, with the stars strung for a rattle. I cut my teeth as the black raccoon for implements of battle. Some are swaddled in silk and down, and heralded by a star. They swathed my limbs in a sackcloth gown on a night that was black as tar. For some, godfather and God-dame the opulent fairies be. Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me. For I was born on a Saturday. " Bad time for planting a seed," was all my father had to say and, "One mouth more to feed." Death cut the string which gave me life and handed me to Sorrow. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Oh, thank you, sir.

Thank you, sir.

Oh, thank you!

No, but we'll have mics on the front-

... of the stage to pick it up. It's going to be an intimate space. It's the Billy Holiday theater in Brooklyn. They've just redone it.

It used to be the restoration ... they call it restoration art, 651 Arts is presenting it. It's tiny, so you will have that feeling of intimacy. It's only 199 seats. Beautiful redone. It's tiny, but I think it actually works for this piece, that feeling of being right there. I'm pleased about that. Yeah, I tried to find, again, some of the accents and the clarity I was seeing, and also the stuff that you told me to be reminded of what we talked about when we were initially together the first time. [crosstalk 00:17:01]

I'm glad it's better.

Thank you. One of my questions was there was this feeling of heartbeat and I wanted to know, I think initially when I had picked it up, or one of the differences is, "Pain, godfathered me." Then there's a ... There is a heartbeat, yeah?

Should I keep hearing it?

Wide, okay.

You want to hear sound there. Okay, that was one of my questions. I think also I had a memory of my arm actually being out, but hers stayed connected. I don't know if you have a thought about this arm from the very beginning. Do you have a feeling about whether you want it out or in?

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you have a feeling is this person who also has another type of affliction like polio or is it just being on the street for a long time?

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mm-hmm (affirmative) to get out the cold.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Strange to other people? Sometimes I know I consider myself strange, but I'm around a bunch of strange people. That's my community is all the strange people. Were you strange growing up or was it you were just an artist?

Let' see, who else was ... there's Doris Humphrey, there's Martha Grant. Who else was making work?

Martha Hill.

Teaching at Julliard. Did you go to school at Julliard?

Smart. Smart.

I bet.

I bet.

Yeah. Then kept teaching there?

Yeah, I'm sure y'all know. Yeah.

That you were making all those people.

This is the 50s and the 60s. We're in the midst of the Civil Rights movement.

It's kicking. It also seems to be a big deal to have, and again in the arts I feel like we find these ways of we're more interested in people being people. That was a big deal that it was an integrated company or that was an integrated space for people to be-

That's a good side hustle. Yeah.

He was one of your company members?

In July.

July what?

July 6th.

My mom's birthday is July 4th.

Yup. She always thought the fireworks were for her. She was like, "It's my day. I get fireworks on my birthday." You were just in, I got to see you briefly, at the International Association of Blacks and Dance.

Is it DCDC [crosstalk 00:26:48]?

... label?

Oh, good. Good.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's one of my favorites. Y'all have seen that one right?

Okay, yeah. That one is really-

I did that. Are there any thoughts about delivery of text or any [crosstalk 00:27:49].

Thank you.

I thought one of the ideas is that you wanted to see my feet, the soles of my feet. I'm trying to start this way so my feet are facing, but if you want me to be, I can be anywhere.

This works?

Okay. Then when I scoot I can scoot on the diagonal. I also brought my costume.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yeah.

A little, okay.

I also brought the costume so you could take a look at it. It's got so many layers that it almost looks like a bunch of material and then my feet.

That's the thing that emerges from there. That's a ...

I did this.

Okay. One more mouth to feed. I'll probably [inaudible 00:29:19] here. Then I can come down so it won't cover the face, yeah.

Straight front?

On this?

Yeah.

[inaudible 00:29:58] Cool. Thank you. Any other things that you [crosstalk 00:30:03].

Yeah, or any other questions, or I mean anybody has so we can take a look at things?

Probably around here. The only kind of middle wife my folks could beg or borrow.

Then I'm going to head off this way. Does that seem right?

[crosstalk 00:30:59]

Is it this one?

Oh, it's this one. It's probably this one. Is it this one.

That one.

Oh, I think it might not be that one. What else could it be? That one I have to go ...

This one goes straight down because I have to grab that. I have to do that.

Then I have that. Then I have this. Then I have that and this.

That's the one at the end. Is that the one you're thinking about?

Beg or borrow. [crosstalk 00:32:29]

There's [inaudible 00:33:02].

Like stars. For some, godfather and God-dame. Oh, I think it's this one. Maybe. The opulent fairies be. That? It's that one.

I think it actually keeps moving I [crosstalk 00:33:47].

Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain godfathered me.

I think it's probably down.

Am I putting it up?

Okay.

There should be ... Did I cut some out?

Dame Poverty gave me my name and Pain ... mm-hmm (affirmative).

Oh, this one.

Yeah.

I can get that big toe going.

That probably [crosstalk 00:35:58].

I can't do the whole toe. I can do one toe. See, I got baby toes. Should I try to do one toe?

There. Practice my toe [inaudible 00:36:27].

I know I'm working hard [inaudible 00:36:45]. What time is it?

Is there anything else [crosstalk 00:37:04].

I know, I got to dirty them up. Well, you know laundry, so I'll dirty them up. Where's my scarf? What happens is in between each solo there's some video footage, which gives me a little break in between the pieces. I have the footage we made in 2000 and let's just say 06. I have some old footage and then I'll include some new footage talking about the piece a little bit. Then you'll some of that before you see the piece. Maybe little snippets of rehearsal, you know, like dancing with the stars. You see them in rehearsal and then you see them live on stage. I'll be getting into these clothes.

I think this piece will be third. There's seven solos in the evening. I'm doing four in the first half. I think it will be Bebe Miller, Kyle Abraham, Saturday's Child and then Rain Forest. That's the first half. Then the second half is Jawole from Urban Bush Women. Jawole Zollar, David Rusev and then it's a piece that I made called No Less Black. That has a poem that goes with it. There's three in the second. Is that right? Did I just count-

Okay. Yeah, no that's right though. There's seven. I was like, "That's eight." No, it's seven. Yeah, usually I do it, but this time I'm actually teaching it. This idea of legacy it's like I'm getting this work from you. You're passing this work onto people. I'm actually going to set the last solo that I actually originally did in 2000 on a dancer who used to work with me 15 years ago. She was recently named one of the top 25 in Dance Magazine. She's having her own career and she danced with David Dorfman and did some work with Urban Bush Women and Liz Lerman. Now she has her own career so I'm going to set that on her. I'm going to read the poem, which I've never gotten to read. She'll do the work and that's the last piece in the show. In between each of these is, like I said, some footage. Different timing, so you don't get bored of, "Oh, here's the video moment." Sometimes I just do a piece without and then you'll see the video afterwards. Backstage changing is pretty fun. It's like, "Get this on her head, quick! Put that on."

Yeah.

Just the scarf, but I tie it like ... she did something like ... You usually let it out so there's something going on kind of like that. Then I [inaudible 00:41:16]. Y'all know it's change [inaudible 00:41:20].

This is also, like I said, if you want to change in costume. Someone said, and I actually thought this was kind of cool, is that you didn't know whether or not I was male or female. You know, because you've seen me already, but it wasn't like, "Oh, it's a homeless woman or a homeless man." It was just this being or person, which I thought was interesting. I can definitely dirty this up.

Thanks.

Oh, thanks. I'm trying to figure out, I was just laughing with Micheal. This is the filmmaker Michael Taylor and Finn over here his assistant. I was laughing because you know how you don't dye your hair for a minute, so it's two tones. It's black and gray and then whatever this color was a year ago. I'm taking off my underwear, sorry. Not my underwear, my pants. We all do this. It's okay. We know how it looks.

Okay, all right.

[inaudible 00:43:15]

Oh my. Did I do this right? I think that's right. I think that's right. Is that right? That didn't seem right.

Yeah. Did I put it around my waist?

Well, she has on leggings and skirt-ish thing on over it.

That's a question. I got to look to see what I ... Thoughts? I don't think that's right. That's weird. Right? All of a sudden I'm a pregnant homeless person. What was this? Was it underneath? I'm going to look at my video really quick.

[inaudible 00:44:53]

Maybe that was my of having a skirt without having a skirt.

[inaudible 00:45:21] I've seen this.